Use of multiple rear remote sets

   / Use of multiple rear remote sets #1  

Dougster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
2,476
Location
MA
Tractor
2004 Mahindra 4110 w/509 BH
Ran into a funny (to me) situation the other day... making me wonder about sequential use of my multiple "stacked" rear remote sets. Because my last in-line rear remote set is normally latched on and dedicated to backhoe use, my first in-line rear remote set is my "all other uses" remote set... currently used exclusively for my FEL grapple... but soon intended for alternate use with my new backhoe hydraulic thumb.

I was a bit surprised to find that while the last in-line remote set was latched full on (i.e., feeding the backhoe circuit normally), the first in-line remote set was unable to grab the flow away from the second/last remote... and is therefore unusable (at least in any practical sense) for my new backhoe hydraulic thumb. I do not have this problem with the FEL control valve which, of course, precedes both remote sets in the tractor's typical open-center hydraulic system.

Does this mean that the stacked rear remote sets do not act in series (as one would expect in an open-center system)? :confused: And if not in series, how are they set-up to operate? :confused:

Dougster
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets #2  
Doug, with me being a simpleton, try switching remotes. Put the backhoe feed on the remote before the end. I have never used any of my remotes simultaneously, so I don't know how the 7520 reacts.:eek:
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets
  • Thread Starter
#3  
MtnViewRanch said:
Doug, with me being a simpleton, try switching remotes. Put the backhoe feed on the remote before the end. I have never used any of my remotes simultaneously, so I don't know how the 7520 reacts.:eek:
I can't imagine that switching remotes would do any good... but I am wondering about switching backhoe in and out hoses on the last-in-line remote (i.e., the one that feeds the backhoe) and reverse the associated lever so the ports are reversed. :confused:

Maybe the bottom line question is a lot simpler than I'm making it sound. Maybe the question is as simple as: "Can two stacked rear remotes draw flow at the same time"? And if not, which one *overrides* or takes priority over the other? :confused:

Dougster
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets #4  
Dougster:

What you are experiencing is normal if the grapple does not work when both the following are true: 1. the last remote is held full open to direct fluid to the backhoe, and 2. the backhoe valves are all in neutral.

Here is why: the remotes are probably arranged in parallel. That means (since your tractor system is open center), when all remotes are in neutral the fluid from the pump flows through all the remotes in the common "open center" gallery in the remotes and then to the tank, three point, or whatever is down stream.

In a parallel system, when any remote valve is opened several things happen in the remotes as a group: 1. the open center gallery within the remotes is blocked off by the valve you opened, 2. the fluid that has now been blocked from passing through the remotes as a set gets out of the remote set through any individual remote valve that is open, 3. the movement of the backhoe remote spool that blocked the open center gallery and keeps fluid from flowing out of the remote set also opens the work ports on the backhoe remote, 4. the fluid now flows through the backhoe and back to tank, etc. 5. if you now open the upstream remote connected to the grapple, the grapple spool also blocks the open center gallery, but that changes nothing because the backhoe spool has already blocked that gallery, 6. the grapple work ports are also open to allow fluid to flow through them to operate the grapple, 7. that means fluid going into the remote valve set has two routes (a) the backhoe, and (b) the grapple, 8. since fluid flows where the resistance is less, it all flows through the backhoe since (as assumed at the start) none of the backhoe valves are operated and the fluid can pass freely through the backhoe valve set and back to tank, etc., 8. none flows to the grapple because, even though the grapple circuit is open and fluid from the pump is present at the grapple work ports, the movement of the grapple creates more resistance to the flow of fluid than does the free flow through the backhoe valve.

If I am correct, if you also operate one of the backhoe valves at the same time (say raise the boom), then resistance to the flow of fluid through the backhoe circuit will arise and this resistance will cause some fluid to flow into the grapple circuit where the resistance is now probably less.

This is one of the major disadvantages of the open center system: you have to block off the open center to get any work from the fluid. In the closed center system (variable displacement pump) no fluid flows until a valve is opened, and the pump decreases its output flow to virtually zero (actually, just enough to keep pressure (say 2500psi) in the system). When one valve opens and the pressure drops a bit, the pump increases its volume to build the pressure back to the original 2500 psi. If another valve is opened at the same time, the pump (assuming it is large enough) further increases its volume to keep 2500 psi at both valves. Therefore, both valves receive full flow. The rationing of fluid away from one valve to another one with less resistance only occurs in the closed center system when the pump is operating at capacity and can't increase its output to keep full pressure on all valves.

So as you suspected, the backhoe thumb will not operate unless either 1. the remote to the backhoe is in neutral or 2. you are engaging a backhoe function at the same time.

Can you insert a solenoid selector valve into the backhoe bucket circuit so that you can shift the bucket circuit between the bucket and the grapple, just like many readers do for their grapple with the FEL curl circuit?
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Farmerford said:
Dougster: What you are experiencing is normal if the grapple does not work when both the following are true: 1. the last remote is held full open to direct fluid to the backhoe, and 2. the backhoe valves are all in neutral. {big snip} So as you suspected, the backhoe thumb will not operate unless either 1. the remote to the backhoe is in neutral or 2. you are engaging a backhoe function at the same time.
Thanks Charles - Your analysis appears to be complete and flawless. I had to read it a few times before it completely sunk into my thick skull, but there is no denying that your explanation fully explains what I see happening. My only remaining confusion is why the first-in-line remote valve cannot (i.e., does not) sufficiently choke off open center flow to the second-in-line remote valve. Clearly, it must be a common or parallel internal arrangement as you have stated... relying on the operational assumption that only one remote set valve will be open at any given time (or at least that the other remote set valve, if also open, would somehow be dead-ended).
Farmerford said:
Can you insert a solenoid selector valve into the backhoe bucket circuit so that you can shift the bucket circuit between the bucket and the grapple, just like many readers do for their grapple with the FEL curl circuit?
I'll certainly have to consider that option. Another backhoe re-plumbing arrangement had been suggested to me previously by a respected Mahindra dealer. While it had some potential downsides, it may be time to revisit that option as well in light of this new revelation.

Otherwise, I better get darn good and fast at unlatching and relatching the backhoe's remote set lever every time I want to use the hydraulic thumb's remote set lever. :rolleyes:

Thanks again,
Dougster
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets #6  
Doug, can you plumb off of your loader control? (power beyond, I think?) Run the backhoe off of that and then use the remote for your thumb? How does that work anyway? Don't you want the thumb control at the backhoe controls?:confused: Should not the thumb control actually be plumbed off of the backhoe fluid supply?
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets
  • Thread Starter
#7  
MtnViewRanch said:
Doug, can you plumb off of your loader control? (power beyond, I think?) Run the backhoe off of that and then use the remote for your thumb? How does that work anyway?
FEL control valve power beyond already is the hydraulic source for both rear remote sets (including the backhoe-dedicated rear remote set) and, ultimately, the 3-point hitch.
MtnViewRanch said:
Don't you want the thumb control at the backhoe controls?:confused: Should not the thumb control actually be plumbed off of the backhoe fluid supply?
In an ideal world in which I had your kind of money... yes! :) I would simply purchase and have installed the other half of the overall Bradco hydraulic thumb kit... the so-called "two-way boom hydraulic kit"... sometimes simply called the "valve kit." The total installed cost of the dealer version of that valve kit is staggering beyond the imagination... so I need to use either my second remote set or a solenoid valve (i.e., diverter valve) arrangement off the bucket hydraulic lines.

Of course, a separate PTO pump for the backhoe would solve all of this nonsense! :D

Dougster
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets #8  
Dougster said:
Of course, a separate PTO pump for the backhoe would solve all of this nonsense! :D
Dougster
Pump, pump, pump! :D
hugs, Brandi
 
   / Use of multiple rear remote sets
  • Thread Starter
#9  
bindian said:
Pump, pump, pump! :D
hugs, Brandi
Well, just when I'm thinking that I'm okay on flow to the backhoe... and waiting to find out where I stand on hydraulic system pressure... this *other* issue raises its ugly little head. :rolleyes:

Once again, economics (rather than operational convenience) will likely dictate the eventual outcome. :eek:

Dougster
 

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