Using old Cement-all.

[JasperFrank]

I have a patio project I'm working on and have two older 55Lbs bags of Cement-All rapid set. Both bags have clumps in them as I live in a damp climate and these are at last three years old. Most of the bags are a mix of grainualr and powder. Has anyone had success mixing up old Cement-all with water or does it just fall apart? I have a highspeed drill and a mixing paddle, but no way to re-crush the clumps back to powder. Thinking I could still use them as a border back fill to the pavers I've placed. Then go get the the good new stuff to use as the in field grout between the pavers. I really hate wasting materials.....

 

[Gee Ray]

I would suggest you not use cement as a grout for your patio project. It will look nice new but will deteriorate very quickly. Instead put down a gravel base, put down the sand base, set your pavers in level them and then lock them in place with sand.

Using cement as a grout will lock everything tightly together which will fail quickly as you go through hot and cold cycles of simply a summer day.

They don’t even suggest using cement to lock in the outside ring anymore. They have other means and you would have to investigate what is available in your area.

 

[Roadworthy]

I'm unfamiliar with the product. If it's based on Portland cement it gets hard due to a chemical reaction. You can grind it to powder again but adding water won't reconstitute it. I had an old bag of concrete. I used it to set the post for my mailbox.

 

[JasperFrank]

I found that if I use a sieve, I can take out all the clumps bigger then 1/4 inch. The power stir paddle is then able to re-integrate the 1/4 inch and less into the slurry. My test batch, looks to have gotten pretty hard over night. So the call, is that you can still use bags that have been exposed to damp air over time. I'm not using the old stuff for in the field of the pavers, just on the sides as backfill retainment.

 

[spitter]

Never grout pavers! Best thing to fill joints is poly metric sand. Pour sand on top of pavers then broom sweep it into joints. Make Shure all joints are filled equal and sweep off excess sand, then spray with water hose lightly don't flood or soak. The sand will harden like mortar, and you will never get grass growing or ants living in joints. Regular sand attracts ants and allows for weeds to grow.

 

[JasperFrank]

Why not mortar, then grout pavers? They are after all, just bricks of another name? Not for walls, but for over a concrete pad, I can't see a problem, aside from it being a little bit more expensive, yet something that would last a 100 years with little maintenance.

 

[Gee Ray]

I don’t know where you were located but pavers laying horizontal are susceptible to the freeze thaw cycle. If you lock them in with a cement boarder and then grout them into one large piece there will be cracks formed as the pavers will expand and contract with the heat and the cold. I am in Florida and the relatively small temperature changes are enough to pop the tile loose on the interior of a house let alone on the exposed exterior.

Look at sidewalks and driveways, they all have expansion joints for a reason.

In addition grouting a paver would not be very easy to do. Mix up some grout and trowel some across the paver. Now wipe it down and the amount of grout in the pours of the paver will not look very good.

If you do not believe me that is fine but my company did over 2500 homes worth of tile work. Believe me you will not like the look of your pavers if you cement them into place.

 

[spitter]

Well said Gee ray. Why on Gods little green earth would u think of mixing mortar, troweling into joints, and trying to clean up the mess when u can just dump a bag of polymetric sand, sweep into joints and sprinkle with water. I've done and seen a couple of 100,000 sq. ft. of pavers done this way and never saw a crack or a blade of grass in them.

 

[JasperFrank]

Thank you all for the professional suggestions as to the "correct way" of setting down pavers.

I am aware of, and have completed several like projects the "correct way," which as you all have pointed out, means, dig down, level, add a base, compact, add a layer of sand, level, then lay pavers, and then use sand, granite fines, or poly-sand to set the pavers then nailing in a retention border.

I absolutely agree with everyone that, this is the standard, and correct, way of doing things.
However, in the other smaller paver patios I've put in, I've been disappointed with the long term, as in several years later, results, using this correct way.

I have soil that is very "plastic." In the sense, that it shrinks and swells, like a sponge, between dry summers and very wet winters and the occasional, week long, below zero, deep freeze. One of the joys of living in the country, is the DIY freedom. I personally like doing experiments, even if they are failures, at least I tied something different than the normal, that might be a better solution.

One solution that I found, and it has stood the test of time, is to excavate, then 3 ½, ¾ minus, compact, then 1 inch of sharp sand, un-compacted, then a layer of precast 12 inch square, 1 ½ thick pavers with ¼ inch grout spacing. These pavers are typically 88 cents each when they are on sale and 50 cents when available at the local second hand, building materials store. Then, I flood the entire area with a slurry of cement-all and trowel the slurry in to all the joints and smooth it all out. I let this slowly dry. Once its hard, then I'll skim coat the base with mortar and set what ever final dress stone I want. I've done this with both Quality Slate and with Flag Stone, then grout and clean/wash with Muriatic Acid . These pads have stood up the test of time with no cracks and heaving, or loose, dress cover, and zero plants taking hold in the seams after seven years.

Water is also properly directed away from the foundation.

So I'm doing the same thing here, just on a much larger scale and the final dress is going to be a random pattern dressing of pre-made concrete, 2 ½ inch thick pavers.

One might ask, why not just do a poured pad with rebar, and I will say.... I really, really, really, hate working with bagged concrete mix.

We are also attempting to create a space that looks like it is ancient. So, artistically, perfection isn't the goal. The below pic looks like I've made a valley,.... this is a lens effect.

 

[LD1]

There is a science behind doing pavers if you want them to last....and not sink/heave and just be a bunch of loose pavers again in short order.

A friend owns a hardscape company. They do high end paver patios and retaining walls. Unilock and belgard materials. Not the cheap box store stuff.

Proper patio is as follows....

Excavate the area 10" below patio finished height.

Lay down geotek fabric

Install 6" of base stone (#57 limestone). Other areas don't call it 57's, but it's uniform sized 3/4" stuff.

Use plate compactor over the base.

1" of #9 limestone on top of that, screened to level. This stuff is one size under pea gravel. It's really fine limestone.

Set pavers.

Use polymeric sand (mentioned earlier in this thread). Sweep it into joints.

Plate compactor for smooth pavers, roller paver for textured pavers. But compact the pavers, which help work the sand into the joints. Keep sweeping til joints are full once pavers are compacted.

Wet down per instructions for the polymeric sand.

Then a product called permaedge. It's like a fiber reinforced synthetic cement product. Comes in a 5 gallon pail. Go around the edges with a putty 4" knife. Half way up the paver, tapering off to nothing 4" out.

The base should be 1' bigger than the patio all the way around. And if it's elevated above surrounding grade, it needs backed up with soil or a retaining wall to keep base from settling out from under patio

This is the preferred method across the industry for paver installs. No sand anymore.

Following pic is a small one we did. In the pic, you can see the base stone, the #9's that the pavers sit on, and the perma-edge because this is before we put stone back up there.

The steps are. $$$$, but for reference, this is a ~$4k job with material and labor