Utility/CUT purchase questions

[Keith_B]

I've been putting in a lot of time looking at the specs for the various CUTS with MFWD in the 40HP range, and also even looked at some of the 2 WD value priced utilities in the 40-50HP range.

Our farm has a lot of hillside on it, so stability is a concern of mine when choosing a tractor that I plan to use for the next few decades. For the record, the hillside work would mostly involve bush hogging. Most of the loader work I will be doing is in areas where I am not too concerned about the hills causing stability problems.

It appears to me that there are three factors in stability. They are center of gravity, overall weight and width of the tractors.

My questions then are these:

I have noted that the tendency is to list the widths as the minimum, with no mention of the max width. The tractors we currently have on the farm have the power adjustable spinout type of wheels. With the power adjustable wheels it is easy to see how much width can be picked up. How much adjustment do the standard CUT wheels have? I plan on purchasing a machine with R1/Ag tires and wheels.

In the 40HP range there are huge differences in the weights of the CUTS w/MFWD. Some of them weigh in at around 3000 lbs, others weigh in at about 4000 lbs. I would assume that a heavier tractor, especially one wieghing in at 1000 lbs more than another contender would likely be more stable, and could be made even more stable with the addition of fluid in the tires. How much additional weight would I expect to pick up with adding fluid to the tires? Would adding fluid to the front tires also make the tractor more stable, without adversely affecting loader operation or steering?

Would there be a significant amount of stability gained by going with a 2WD utility model, such as the John Deere 03 series, Mahindra 4500, etc?

 

[Soundguy]

In general.. a larger 2wd is used in place of a smaller 4wd. a 4wd will pull a load better than a similar sized 2wd. As you move that 2wd up in weight and hp.. it equals out.

If you are looking for a 40ish hp tractor, and keeping stability inmind.. look for a NH 3010s. I almost bought one a while back.. but it wasn't sufficiently bigger than my (ex) nh 1920 at the time to step up. It's a great basic tractor.. and has a medium+ sized footprint. looks to be very stable.

Soundguy

 

[Keith_B]

Soundguy, with the price of used NH/Fords, John Deeres, etc. in my area being what they are I cannot see sinking nearly enough in a used machine to purchase a new one. In my area a low hours 3010s is going to run $13,500 (based on an ad I located from a dealer), without a loader. Once I add a loader I am likely going to be nearing the $18000 range. I think I can purchase a new 03 series Deere, the Mahindra 4500, Farmtrac 45, etc., with a loader for what that used 3010s is going to cost me. The new tractors come with factory warranties, when you are lucky you get a 30 or 60 day warranty in our area on the motor and tranny of a good used machine. Many are sold "as is".

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( In general.. a larger 2wd is used in place of a smaller 4wd. a 4wd will pull a load better than a similar sized 2wd. As you move that 2wd up in weight and hp.. it equals out. )</font>

Would it be fair to say that the larger MFWD CUTs in the 40-45hp range will be fairly equal in regards to stability as a 45 hp 2WD utility?

Currently I am using my FIL's 4000 Ford, without FEL, and find that the front end likes to try to slide around in some areas when I bush hog. Fighting the front end movement is part of the job I would like to eliminate. Would the MFWD on the larger CUTs help me out?

 

[cowboydoc]

If you want to talk about stability only and mfwd isn't a problem then a resounding YES the 03 is WAY more stable than the compact. I have a JD 4600 and a 5303. My 5303 I can make much wider than the 4600 and on slopes with a bale I'll take the 03. I'll take the 03 on any slope mowing or otherwise. The 4600 is an awesome tractor but when mfwd isn't needed the 03 on slopes is more stable.

As far as changing the wheel width it is a bit of a pain. You have to take the wheels off and change the rim. The rim is in two pieces and by varying this you can set up to 8 different widths. The most important thing on the 03 is that the front wheel go much wider than the rear wheels. You should be able to get an 03 in the 17-18k range with a loader.

 

[Keith_B]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If you want to talk about stability only and mfwd isn't a problem then a resounding YES the 03 is WAY more stable than the compact. I have a JD 4600 and a 5303. My 5303 I can make much wider than the 4600 and on slopes with a bale I'll take the 03. I'll take the 03 on any slope mowing or otherwise. The 4600 is an awesome tractor but when mfwd isn't needed the 03 on slopes is more stable.)</font>

Is your 4600 more stable or as stable as the 03 when you need MFWD? My thinking on the MFWD is that it would help mostly when bush hogging, so that I don't get that wandering front end where I have to keep correcting it using the up hill brake all the time.

Moving the round bales on slopes isn't a real concern, as the area in the pasture where I feed in the winter doesn't have much grade to it, although it does get quite muddy this time of year.

The difficulty of adjusting the wheels isn't a real concern for me, as if I purchase a CUT I will have the dealer adjust the width for a wider stance when I purchase it, and I will have no real necessity to adjust it afterward.

 

[MMM]

What size cutter are you using? Sounds like you're light in front. An FEL would likely put an end to the sliding anyway. t MFD would be better for loader work, but good results can be had with loaded tires and counterweight , if needed on 2wd. Loading tires would increase stability by lowering center of gravity. I can't imagine a utility tractor without loaded tires. How much weight depends on tire size. Here's one for water only, you can add about 30% for CACL2.
H2O

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( to run $13,500 (based on an ad I located from a dealer), without a loader. Once I add a loader I am likely going to be nearing the $18000 range )</font>

Must be regional. IThe 3010 I looked at a couple years ago was a full 2k less than that.. hadd a couple hundred hours on it, and ballance of factory warranty.. and a loader was somewhat less than 4.5k$. Ive seen a few threads so far..where lots of cut's and small utility tractors north of florida are going for so much money that new is deffinately an option.

As far as stability goes.. it is hard to outdo a large heavy, wide 2wd tractor with a smaller narrower 4wd.. That wheel stance helps alot.. many 2wd tractors have an adjustable front axle.. and then a wheel center that can be dished, and then a rim that can be moved out. My NH 7610s is just over 7' wide outside of tire to outside of tire... that's pretty decent when it comes to sticking tot he ground... also at the 8000 or so pounds it weighs.. it can use theat engine and 2wd very decently./ Thatas the mistake some make with smaller 4wds. Though the unit may have the hp.. if they don't have enough weight to keep the tires from spinning.. it is useless... whereas on the older larger ag tractors.. you say things like dual rears.. agressive ag tires, and enough weight that would make a scut tires pop..

You'll have to decide what is right for you. mahindar and farmtrac are great #2 brands. It is deffinately a time to set and think about your hard earned money.. used #1.. new #1.. vs new #2. Good luck.

As others stated.. given 2 equal tractors.. in weight and hp.. and one is 2wd and the other is 4wd.. .. both are gonna stick to a slope about the same.. in fact.. in some cases.. the 2wd with a wide front end may be better.. however.. 4wd is nice.. if it is in the equation.

Soundguy

 

[AndyClyde]

Keith,
Where ever you are located in Kentucky,I do not know what area you are in,but if the hills are steep like they are in WVa,for brushogging a 4wd is far better than a 2wd . I could not use a 2wd and get the work done I get with the 4wd or go the places.The hills I mow,if they are very steep I go up and down them in 4wd rather than around them. Talk to some of your locals and your dealers. They would be able to help you decide what would be best. The 4wd is a plus in loader work too.The only place you see many 2wd's any more around here is in the bottom land along the rivers/creeks etc in the hayfields.

 

[Varmintmist]

You can look at it two ways.

If you are running a 2wd and the front end keeps sliding downhill, then you have a built in brain check. Front end slides, you have to much angle. 4wd will hold on the hill until you flip. It will crawl places the 2wd wont, but that can be a good thing. Maybe you shouldnt be there.

4wd will hold the hill and go up and down where the 2wd would get tight. You can crawl out of a lot of errors that you wont with the 2wd. A FEL and the front end on a 4wd will add a lot of weight to help traction. You can load all 4 tires for even more weight.

...

That said I think 4wd is the way to go. Just remember on sidehills the front will pull the tractor and you can get into trouble fast and it is to late before you know it. Thats traction /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[timb]

To answer some specific questions you had -

1st - as Cowboydoc mentioned - the 'adjustable' wheels are a bit of a pain. A lot of CUTs do not seem to have adjustable wheels at all - at best you turn them dish-in or dish-out. The more deluxe units have '8-way' adjustable rear wheels - where you can choose dish-in/dish-out for the hub, plus there are two orientations and two mounting positions for the rim - making for a total of 8 combinations. Often the 8-way rims are only available with R1 tires. But it's not something you'll want to be changing very often - especially if you have loaded tires.

2nd - I don't know of any MFWD CUTs that have adjustable FRONT tires. A lot have only one 'authorized' position - at best they have a 2-position dish-in/dish-out choice. Once you get into 'real' utility class tractors - (Deere 5000s, NH TN's et al) the MFWD units tend to have the same 8-way adjustable front wheels same as the rear.

3rd - With big CUT tires, e.g. 13.8x28, 14.9x26, 16.9x24, you could be talking about liquid ballast in the 1,200-1,400 lb range.