Valve question

[tomf]

I recently added a front blade to my loader using a Sauer Danfoss 1618-AL valve. Information on the valve can be found here on page 27

http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/520l0564.pdf

The valve controls the blade fine but when the valve handle is in the neutral position the rod can be pulled further out of the cylinder. Which means that under load the blade will rotate. When I reverse the hoses to the cylinder I have the same problem. But when I attached the blade to the spool of my loader valve, a Husco 9210 valve, which controls the bucket pitch the rod cannot be pulled further out.

My primary questions are:

What allows the rod to be pulled out when it is connect to the Sauer Danfoss 1618-AL valve?

Is the valve operating as designed?

Is the valve defective? If not, can the valve be operated such that the rod cannot pull out?

Am I screwed and I need different valve?

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[MJPetersen]

Tom,

The valve that you have is a motor control valve and the work ports are open to the tank when in neutral. I took this quote from the site that you posted.

4-way, 3-position
Motor open center
Work ports open to tank in neutral position

Unfortunately if you do not want that, and who would , then you will have to change ot a different valve, a bidirectional cylinder valve.

Mike

 

[kennyd]

Tom,

The valve that you have is a motor control valve and the work ports are open to the tank when in neutral. I took this quote from the site that you posted.

Unfortunately if you do not want that, and who would , then you will have to change ot a different valve, a bidirectional cylinder valve.

Mike

Maybe, he posted the part # as 1618-AL, and the option for the motor spool is O, but I do agree that sounds like what he has though...


Tom, What is the FULL part # for the valve you have?

 

[MJPetersen]

Kenny, Those were my thoughts and I wrote that and then quickly scanned the link that he posted without examining the finer points. Since I found a line that supported what I thought, posted it. Sure sounds like that is the problem to me anyway.

Mike

 

[tomf]

kenyd,
The nameplate says 1618-AL. I've posted a picture of the nameplate. If I should look somewhere else for a part number let me know. There is also a number 4057 on the valve. Also options A and L refer to a detent positions. But as far as I can tell, there are none.

On pages 7 and 8 various features are listed for different valves. The 1618 can be configured with either the work ports open or closed to the tank. Since Option O is for open, I would think the default is closed. Since Option O is not listed in the nameplate the work ports should be closed be closed to the tank. Am I wrong?

To reiterate, when the valve is in neutral, the rod can either be extended or compressed but not both depending on how the hoses are connected to the work ports. For instance, if the rod is extended under load it can't be compressed past the original starting point. So it appears as if only one work port is open in the neutral position. I would assume that when the technical information says "work ports open to tank in neutral position" that refers to both ports. So I'm confused on that point.

One additional piece of information. I bought this used and it was connected to cylinder which was connected to the blade. When I was taking off the connectors a flow restrictor fell out of one on the ports on the end. (see related posts "what's this") At the time I didn't know what it was. I can't remember if it was in the work, in, or out port. I did not put it back in. Would that have any bearing on this problem?

 

[MJPetersen]

When I was taking off the connectors a flow restrictor fell out of one on the ports on the end. Would that have any bearing on this problem?

It would not stop your free movement, but it would slow it down substantially. I saw the pics and saw that others had already identified it. It still seems to me that this valve is behaving like a motor valve. But I will let Kenny, who is a lot more experienced than I in these matters, to make a diagnosis.

Mike

 

[kennyd]

What did this valve come off of? I ask because I think this may be a custom valve OEM'ed for someone else...If you look at page 61 of the catalog, you will see how to "build" the part numbers-and I cannot figure yours out at all.

It should read something like this:

1618-TS-305HS1 for a 4way, 3pos, spring-centered, standard ball relief, standard handle, 9/16 port size.

One other option I can think of is that the relief on the valve is set very low, and it's tripping due to the weight of the blade-but that is just a "guess" and can only be confirmed with a pressure gauge test.


Isn't buying used stuff fun? How much did you really save?

 

[john_bud]

Isn't buying used stuff fun? How much did you really save?

Ouch.



Tom, Here's a test for you. Disconnect the cylinder hoses at the valve and loop them. Then try to move the cylinder. It should not move much at all (unless there is a lot of air in the system.) If you still have air in the system, move the controls to the far extents of the travel and hold the control against the stop (activating the pressure relief) for 5 seconds. Go the other direction and do the same for 5 seconds. Repeat that 3-4 times. Refill the reservoir and you should be good to go.

jb

 

[tomf]

I'm not sure what it came off. The person I bought it from did not know because he bought it at a public auction from a local school district. I'm pretty sure it came off a piece of Kubota equipment. I'd guess a Kubota mower. It came with a kubota 2019 blade, cylinder, and mounting hardware. When I bought it I was ignorant and thought it had all the mounting equipment to mount to my B2400. Alas, it did not, so it sat in my barn for years. One day I was browsing tractorbynet and I saw how someone mounted a blade to their FEL and was inspired. I'll attach some pictures. Maybe someone will recognize it.

Your thoughts about the relief valve being set too low had crossed my mine but I didn't know how to check it or even adjust it. I'll think about it and maybe look into it some more.

As for the money I saved: The dealer said a new blade alone was $750 plus mounting hardware of $1100. I paid $350 for the blade, cylinder, valve, and mounting hardware plus another $300 or so, to get where I am today. If I end up buying a new valve I will get a 3 spool model costing about $300. That puts me about $800 ahead plus I'll have two spools to add more toys to my tractor. It's not only the money. I've learned a heck of a lot by doing this project. I learned about valves, cylinders, hydraulics, snow plows, and welding. I suppose I could have plopped down the two grand and gone around blissfully ignorant. What fun is that? Or I could just hire someone to do everything I do with my tractor. Again what fun is that?

Finally I think I've figured out how to use the valve in it present configuration. I'll use it to control the pitch of the loader and use a loader spool to control the angle. Because the valve allows movement in one direction under load the configuration will not allow a downward change in the pitch and limited upward movement. Almost like a quasi float. Am I wrong?

 

[kennyd]

Tom, I did not mean to sound like a ButtHead, I have been in your shoes to many times to count!

You did get a good deal on the package, but that valve is just a mystery...and without knowing how the valve is equipped this may be a futile effort. I would have done everything you have done already, including buying the PB sleeve...but you may just want to get a new valve to save your sanity.

 

[tomf]

You're right. Once I get involved in something I hate to give up. Of course the valve at which I was looking jump in price $100 since yesteray. LOL said with sarcasm. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and everyone else does on this site and others. I love the way the INTERNET has spread knowledge that previously was unavailable.

Maybe someone will recognize the mount or valve of the specific application and tell us what's up.

Thanks again, Tom

 

[tomf]

Could air getting into the system at one work port be the cause of my problem?

The reason I ask is that yesterday and the day before when I hooked up the blade to the bucket ports I could angle in both directions. Yesterday I sealed the quick connects and the hose line with locktite. Now I can only angle in one direction because of the regen feature of the bucket spool. I thought it strange that I could angle in both directions but the loader arms would only move in one direction when hooked to the bucket spool.

 

[kennyd]

Everything should purge itself, there is no need to bleed any lines.

 

[Leejohn]

Boys what I see when looking at his picture. I see a hose going to the in port, a PB hose and BP plug, a QC on the A port, a QC on the out port and I don't see a hose to the tank or a B port where it should be. I looked at the plow and it has a double acting Cyl. I think the valve is for a single acting Cyl. and Tom is trying to run a double acting Cyl.

 

[tomf]

LeeJohn. The picture you are looking at is just for identification of the valve. The IN of the blade valve is not visible in this picture. In this particular picture I have the cylinder blade hooked to my loader bucket spool. I was testing the cylinder trying to isolate the problem. The problem lies at the B port. Right now I suspect that B port is open to the TANK in neutral. Sauer-Danfoss says they can't identify the configuration based on the identifying markings, contact the dealer. I've emailed my local Kubota dealer today so hopefully I'll have the valve configuration soon.

Anyway the valve is plumbed like this.
PB of loader valve to IN of blade valve
OUT of blade valve "tee-ed" to OUT of loader valve to TANK
PB of blade valve to IN of tractor hydraulics
Quick connects on the blade valve work ports which are quick connected to hoses of the blade cylinder.

Here's a picture of the valve in the state I bought it. If you look closely you can see the IN port. If you zoom in you can see the letter N above the IN port and the word OUT above the OUT port.

 

[kennyd]

Sauer-Danfoss says they can't identify the configuration based on the identifying markings, contact the dealer. I've emailed my local Kubota dealer today so hopefully I'll have the valve configuration soon.

Just as I suspected, SD OEM'ed it for Kubota, and they cannot/will not provide specs...Husco does the same thing.

I wish you luck getting any info on it...

BUT-What info could they provide that would be beneficial at this point other than to satisfy your curiosity? It is not working for what you need...

 

[Leejohn]

Tom I have a Danfoss valve about 10gal prm, it has the A & B ports on top with load checks. No handle. Its for double acting cyl. I well check tomorrow and see if I have the Pb plug. I think I gave $20.00 for it + the PB plug. I had it on my B7800 and took it off and put on a double spool for 2 remotes, and I might of used the PB plug for it.
If I don't have the PB plug the one you have might be the same. I well sell it for the $20.00 I gave for it + the shipping about $8 or $9. But let me check tomorrow and if you are interested let me know.

Lee

 

[Leejohn]

Tom the valve I have looks like the one on page 15 of your PDF file or model 1617. I think the A & B ports are #6 sae O ring fittings. In & out might be # 8 sae O ring fittings

 

[tomf]

LeeJohn. I'm interested. I sent you an email. Thanks Tom

 

[tomf]

After a couple of email exchanges with my local Kobota dealer explaining the situation, here is what they said

"The blade and valve that you have were originally for a commercial front mower. The valve circuitry should be similar to your application, so I I would also suspect that valve is the cause of your problems. I would suggest buying a new valve that fits your needs better."

I think I have exhausted all my other options so that's what I'm going to do.