Visit from the President

TBone · Apr 4, 2002

Wingnut,

People are not satisfied with a healthy lifestyle anymore .... they want all the toys and geegaws that the guys at GM and Ford can buy with their union wages.

Just curious, do you have a problem with GM and Ford's union wages? And when you refer to People and they are you including yourself or just everybody else?

TBone

Wingnut · Apr 4, 2002

Tbone ... nope, no problem at all with AUW wages ... heck ... when I hear some GM guy braggin' on the radio that he made over $140k last year ... and see local "news interest" stories on janitors at GM making in excess of $100k a year ... nope ... no problem at all.
Of course, that's likely 'cause I sold off my last GM product when I moved to Michigan.

Sorry ... being slightly more serious ... I will have to admit that, in my formative years, being a member of the Teamsters Union gave me a pretty jaundiced view of unions in general ... and my experiences since that time have not given me a better view. By the way, the latest union contract that I read (yesterday) pretty much solidifies my opinion on unions .. it states (and I'm paraphrasing here to avoid plagarism or copyright laws) "this contract is in force for the next five years unless some other union working at this site negotiates a better deal, in which case we want what they got"

Of course, I do separate my feeling for "unions in general" from the indivual people I meet and interact with.

When I refer to People , I'm being pretty general and generic ... but I certainly include myself. Some days, at least, I do feel like a people ... some days ... based on my difference of opinion with they I do feel like an alien - or at least very out of step with this "modern" world.

Wingnut · Apr 4, 2002

While I'm probably perceived, right now, as defending the "middlemen" ... I haven't really been trying to ... just pointing out that they do add value to the product for sale ... be it corn, gasoline or fertilizer.
Where I really have a problem comprehending value though is with the whole concept of "futures".
Pork Bellies?
Sorry ... I'm totally out of my depth when we start talking "pork bellies". I understand raising hogs (although I can't fathom why one would want to ... my grandparents place sure enough stunk to high heavens! - how do you scrub that smell off??) ... but what's this "pork bellies futures" stuff??? And how does it add value.
Can you say "casino"? (or "lottery"?)

PitbullMidwest · Apr 4, 2002

I understand raising hogs (although I can't fathom why one would want to ... ... my grandparents place sure enough stunk to high heavens!)

I have an uncle that raised hogs and made a nice profit doing it in the '70s. If you were down wind from the confinement he'd ask "Do you smell that? It's the smell of money."

Maybe that's why some people have to launder their money /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

TerryinMD · Apr 4, 2002

Guys...

I know a guy who does computer work for the AFL/CIO Hq in DC. Since he works for the AFL/CIO, he is required to be a union member. In their contract, they have the stipulation that the get equal benefits of any of the AFL/CIO membership. With that in mind, whoever negotiates a new contract with better benefits, their local contract automatically gets the same benefit. Also, they really never negotiate a new contract. Just keep making adjustments. That is absolutely ridiculous. Even he agreed, but he wasn't going to turn it down, of course. Additionally, he only had to work 6.5 hours a day and get 8 hrs pay. Now that was a deal. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

In some crazy way, unions have gone the same way as the highly overpaid and spoiled corporate executives. Basically, it is a "me" mentality in which the consumer pays for all of it.

Terry

Wingnut · Apr 4, 2002

that's where I'm coming from, Terry.

Also ... when they do strike ... who do they try to affect? Well, usually the poor schmuck that isn't even involved ... joe average consumer. In my experience. Which consists of the annual strikes by the postal carriers in Canada (are they still doing that, Kevin?); and the almost annual strikes by the overpaid folks "working" for our airlines.
My wife was assaulted, had her vehicle trashed several times, etc ... during a strike, and then the union guys want to "put all that stuff behind them" as part of the settlement. If they treated the thugs the way they should instead of agreeing to "no prosecution" as part of the contracts ... we'd likely have a lot less unions and a lot more workers.
What I've always enjoyed is noting that the leaders of the unions pay themselves full wages and bonuses while the guys are on the picket line ... but the placard-toters get strike wages.
Did you see the article that one of the unions at Dow Chemical in south Texas managed to get 12 guys reinstated. Over 25 guys had been fired for misuse of company email ... apparently some of the stuff was pretty darned awful ... and they've been forced to reinstate the 12 union guys ... whom, I heard, were the worse of the bunch. The others will not be rehired ... since they don't have a union protecting them.
Oh well, we started this to talk about farming, didn't we? Sorry 'bout that.

TBone · Apr 4, 2002

Wingnut,

I'm glad you made that distinction about individuals vs unions in general because I was beginning to take it personally.

I have read negative comments about the "auto unions" in several of your posts in which you were the only one who brought them up and it just seems to me you had a problem with UAW members in general as you made no such distinction in the past.

I make it a point not to criticize how people make a living if it's honest work. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I worked for General Motors for many years and I personally know UAW members in several states including yours. None of the people I know ever made 140K or 100K for that matter. Did you personally see their W-2's of the people you refer to? (The President of the UAW makes much less than 140K)

I do know some who have gone out on strikes but thank God I never had to. History (not newspaper gossip) tells us that some of the basic benefits (like health insurance and paid vacation time) were the direct result of strikes in the early days. Would Generous Motors have willingly given their employees these things anyway? We'll never know.

I don't know a lot about other unions but I am fairly familiar with the UAW. They have never in their history had any agreement that would automatically "upgrade" their contract if a better deal came along. They have, however, agreed several times to re-open an existing contract prior to its expiration and take pay and benefit cuts because of the financial condition of the company involved. Without their concessions Chrysler wouldn't exist today.

Are there any greedy UAW members out there? Are there any lazy ones? Are there any with a "ME" attitude?

YES

Are there any people like this in your industry? I suspect the answer is the same.

I wish to make this final point and I will gladly let this thread get back to farming where it began. There are some honest, hardworking UAW members in this country that go to work every day and try to make a living for their family the best way they know how. I consider myself one of these and I don't apologize for it to you or anyone else.

TBone

Wingnut · Apr 5, 2002

Tbone .... hey, man ... I certainly wasn't trying to shoot anything at or by you personally .... I'm just a fanatic generalist. I'm also a firm believer that I will take you at face value until you prove to be different than what you claim. Sometimes the two don't seem to jibe to other people ... but it's always worked for me.

Just so you know ... I didn't pick either of the examples out of thin air ... but I think I was wrong about the janitor ... the "human interest" story actually named him as a fork truck operator. That story was on the local news 2 years ago ... he was profiled because he was an "older" (late 50's) bachelor who has set up scholarships for black kids in Detroit. He worked a lot of overtime (and, at the time, I thought ... so do I but I don't get paid for it ...).
The $140k guy ... based on his story on the radio earlier this week, is a UAW guy in Saginaw, MI. He was laughing about getting back more than $12k on his tax return (and I was thinking what an idiot he was to be loaning the government money).
I should likely pick a different union to throw darts at ... since I'm relatively new to the US ... they may well be way different than the Canadian autoworkers (motto: on strike right now, check back next year). I will certainly admit they don't make the news, in a negative way, very often here ... but this is car country and the media would ignore most of it anyway.
 I will avoid making UAW comments in the future - when I'm jsut making a general comment on unions. 
BTW, I wasn't actually poking at the union in that posting ... I was just making the point ... or trying to ... that people wanted to make the same kind of money ... and not necessarily for the same amount of input (work). In other words, I have a problem with farmers who want to make $100k a year for doing 100 hours of work ... when the union guy was putting in a full year plus overtime for that pay.

The union contract I was commenting on happens to be the Boilermakers ... down in Texas. I can't understand how a publically traded company can honestly sign such an agreement - talk about one-sided contracts.

Anyway ... thanks for the honest feedback, letting me know that I was improperly castigating a group that was not part of the thread (although, again, the original post was not criticising them), and for giving me a chance to clear the air. This is how we keep civilization civil ... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

TBone · Apr 5, 2002

Wingnut,

You are more than welcome for the feedback. Even though I don't agree with your views about labor unions in general, I respect your right to have them and I certainly agree with keeping civilization civil. (Especially on TBN)

TBone