Walmart

RanchMan · Dec 2, 2003

RobertN -

The color of the small tractor is not a matter of CHOICE... 
Hmmm. No choice, huh? I guess the Green folks (amongst others) - even with some of their foreign parts - don't offer you a viable choice to Orange. Nope, no other tractors even worth considering - I mean, since they all have some foreign content, they're all equal with regards to being "non-American." Forget whether or not they are a foreign held company or not. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

...a couple have some US made parts, but are essentially foreign made. 
And some are assembled in the U.S. while others are not. But I guess U.S. assembly worker jobs don't count toward your "buy AMERICAN" attitude. I suppose folks like yourself who want to create the most American jobs (assembly, manufacturing, etc.) should choose products made by U.S. workers who are the LEAST efficient at doing their job - I mean, if you buy that widget that took 3 U.S. workers from Company “A” to make instead of the widget that took only 1 U.S. worker at Company “B” to make, you MUST be more patriotic, right? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When the choice is there, I but primarily US. Sometimes it's expensive. Sometimes it is antiquated
I assume you meant “buy.” – So you ADMIT that you are willing to compromise your principles if it "hurts" you in some way at times. (key word PRIMARILY). Maybe you don't want to spend $10 for a U.S. made kitchen do-dad when you can get a Chinese one for $0.50.

It also appears that you believe Orange is a superior to any other tractor on the market - but you also state you have no fear/issues with buying "antiquated" equipment. So even though you could get an inferior product (in your mind, at least) for a higher price and employ more U.S. workers in doing so, why did you select Orange? Seems like an oxymoron to me...

Sometimes, it's the only choice, like the Kubota. 
Hmm. ONLY choice. If you are THAT biased there's no real point trying to continue trying to illustrate the folly of your logic. All the colors have +’s and -‘s and tractor brand loyalty is a religious topic as it is....

Yea, like I suspected, lots of justifications that people will use so they can portray a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to being patriotic by buying U.S. made products... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TresCrows · Dec 2, 2003

"I could address your points in detail, but based on past encounters you and I have had, it would be a futile effort. About the only thing I will say (and the most euphemistic way I can put it) is that some of your points are not congruent with basic business principles. "

Let's not start a flame thread, I obviously dissagree with you but I won't characterize your opinions or belittle them, I simply dissagree. What I don't like is the insinuation that I or others are hipocrits. Some people focus in on the "foreign" aspect. That is not my beef with Wal Mart though it may be yours or some other persons legitimate point of contention. Just did not want words put in my mouth that I did not say in that context or meaning.
I sometimes buy stuff from Wal Mart, I avoid them when I can giving my buisness when possible to independednts and other outlets. Sometimes dancing with the Devil is needed and a stealthy infiltration and then a hasty exfiltration with the evil goods in hand is my shopping strategy there. Sometimes incognito is best.
I agree with you Rogue, as always. Let's not get into a fight over who said what and meant what when they said it and whose Moma wears Army Boots and what color Japanese tractor people bought /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
"Congruent with buisness principles", well apparently the business principles of many so called "American" companies are then incongruent with buisness principles or they would not keep lean sizing, downsizing, out sourcing and "just in time" themselves right out of buisness. That could be an extrapolation of what Ranchman said but I know it is not what he said, no it is in fact what I am saying, does this mean we agree?
Sometimes I feel like we are all a bunch of crawdads dumped into a pan of hot oil and we sit around arguing about which side of the pan is hotter /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. How does it matter /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif, the end product is that we crawdads get eaten /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. If anyone actually has a game plan for attacking the problem, if we could even agree on what the "problem" is--like a million tractor march on the Wal Mart headquarters please let me know. Since this thread is going south, I am hitting the silk. J

Bob_In_MN · Dec 2, 2003

CTyler,

No statistics from memory, but if you do a search under PBS Store Wars: When Wal-mart Comes to Town you can get acess to a summary of the story and you can search for TV stations in your area that run the program.

Since the program ran some time ago, it may not be showing currently, but they do re-run these things from time to time.

I saw the story on one of my dish channels--not local PBS.

They show both sides, but as with any story (particularly on PBS) I'm sure it's biased.

Incidently--I didn't rely on this story to formulate my opinion on Wal-mart. I just remember it as a interesting story because it covered the entire process from petitioning a city to build a store through the completion process.

Bob

Hambone · Dec 2, 2003

I have never been a Walmart shopper. I think I have been in two stores my whole life. Once each.

I don't think anyone knows the answer, but , no doubt the consumer has helped along the way.

 And the Milwaukee employees of Master Lock who shopped at Wal-Mart to save money helped that hand shove their own jobs right to Nogales(Mexico). Not consciously, not directly, but inevitably. "Do we as consumers appreciate what we're doing?" Larrimore asks. "I don't think so. But even if we do, I think we say, Here's a Master Lock for $9, here's another lock for $6--let the other guy pay $9." 

Most Americans probably think this way. It is hard to compete with foreign contries that have a labor rate so much lower than ours. Not going to point a finger at anybody on this one.
But it seems everyone agree's with the theory that we have to retrieve some of our manufacturing. One day when we buy everything from somewhere else, all we will have is............

RanchMan · Dec 2, 2003

Trescrows -

What I don't like is the insinuation that I or others are hipocrits 
What I don't like it how some folks (not necessarily you) tout "BUY AMERICAN" as some type of patriotic flag while ignoring the basic business principles associated with a global economy.

 I won't characterize your opinions or belittle them 
Look a little closer at your previous post. Sure appeared to be a lot of sarcasm in it to me.

 What I don't like is the insinuation that I or others are hipocrits 
No insinuation about it - Anyone who blasts with a bullhorn in my ear saying "BUY AMERICAN" yet don't themselves because they are "exempt" for whatever reason ($$$, convenience, etc). IS a hypocrite - per the definition.

Yes, there are valid reasons for NOT buying foreign goods (be it from Walmart, Kmart, Target, mom & pop shop - wherever) - some of which you outlined - but folks should let them stand on their own merits and stop this whole flag waving "I'm a better American than you because I buy U.S. whenever I can." attitude - I find THAT offensive. Perhaps that has what gotten my dander up on this thread. If we want to discuss the merits of foreign goods on the various characteristics (i.e. quality, price, etc.) that’s fine - and I even agree with you to a point on some of those aspects - but this whole “I’m more of a patriot” implication is way out of line. (Again, this aspect isn’t necessarily directed toward you.)

well apparently the business principles of many so called "American" companies are then incongruent with buisness principles or they would not keep lean sizing, downsizing, out sourcing and "just in time" themselves right out of buisness.

Those criticizing businesses when they modify their approach need to remember that it’s the CEO's responsibility to maximize stock value while NOT going out of business, compete effectively against the competition, minimize costs and maximize profits. - It’s NOT his responsibility to try and keep his competitors in business. We are living in a capitalistic society - not a communistic one.

There are many ways to do this- legally and illegally. Obviously the illegal methods are "off limits" and should be prosecuted, but the other ones are fair game and simply a part of the real world. Again, the whole aspect is to meet customer demands (price, quality, service, etc. - different customers prioritize these aspects differently) while providing a profit for the company, who then distributes it to the stock holders. (Funny how so many folks complain about “dern stockholders” when they are probably stockholders themselves! - i.e. 401K, IRA, etc.).

Regarding "downsizing" - while a useful tool at times, yes, companies that "downsize themselves in oblivion" are NOT using that tool wisely. Mass layoffs, etc. often only meet short term requirements for cash flow - why? Because unless there is a major shift in efficiencies, companies that do such that still have demand (i.e. you aren't in the buggy whip industry) will loose market share due to the lack of capacity.

Additionally, opportunity costs MUST be considered before downsizing and not just costs/revenues from the accounting perspective - that's why most CEO's don’t climb the corporate ladder from the accounting department - i.e. aspects such as customer good will, etc. are hard to measure but do lead to real dollars on the bottom line.

Are all American companies “wise” with regards to using tools such as downsizing? Nope - but some are and if they play their cards right, it is most likely a temporary condition if market demand increases or market share increases. (Before anyone takes offence to this, I’m not completely bashing accountants - they serve a necessary function and work very hard at what they do - what I’m saying is that they often have a hard time with nebulous areas where real hard numbers can’t be established prior to realization.)

That could be an extrapolation of what Ranchman said but I know it is not what he said, no it is in fact what I am saying, does this mean we agree?

Yes we do - to a degree. The reasons are a bit different though. The main reason some U.S. companies are going out of business are complacency. Be it ignoring upcoming competitors, being indifferent to customer demands, overpaying existing their existing workforce, living in the past, or simply making boneheaded business decisions - they got passed up.

RobertN · Dec 2, 2003

To be more specific...

Tractor color is a choice, choice of brands. However, even assembled in the US, the primary components are made overseas. To my limited knowledge, the Green machine in a CUT is a Yanmar with some sheetmetal and a Dana front axle, assembled here of major sub-assemblies.

It would be better to have some of the assembly jobs here. If I were to buy a CUT right now, I would definitely consider the Green one. When I bought my used Kubota 5 years ago, the Green machine was a Yanmar, not a Yanmar assembled in the US of major foriegn subassemblies. I had two strikes against me then. First, I was in the used market, where the only available CUT's were foriegn made. Second, the Green company, to my knowledge the only one assembled here now, was a wholly built Yanmar.

I do in fact have American iron, a nice '41 Farmall A...

I can not tell what amount of CUT's are now assembled here; I do not know. I have not been in the market, so have not studied it closely. Does it matter if a "unit" is assembled here, vs wholly made elsewhere? Yes, IF I was in the market for a tractor today. I would look at all options, but would start with the stuff most made here.

If it meant more workers would be employed building a machine "A" than building machine "B", would it be the unit to buy? Would it be more "Patriotic"? It would be of more benefit to the US economy if more workers were employed in designing, building, and selling the product. I would explore that avenue first. That a company would be better to buy from because it uses three employees to make a widget while the other company only takes one employee because of innovation or highly skilled labor is difficult. As a consumer, you probably would not know that. If, in fact, you did know that, then it may make for a more difficult decision.

In this given example though, I would assume you wish for me to sell my Harley, and go buy a Kawasaki Vulcan? It is made here, with technically more US parts than my Hog. What should I do? Given some minimal credit, my bike bought new way back when is an '83, and back then the big "other brand" cruisers were all built abroad.

I do buy primarily US made items. When I do not, it is typically because the US item is very substandard, or I simply can not afford it. Most times, if I can not afford it, I wait till I can, or go without. As for substandard items, I will say doodoo is doodoo no matter where made...

Orange is not a superior product to any other on the market, whether now or five years ago when I got my used('87) tractor. I believe the CUT market is pretty dang level product wise. I think the choice of CUT's is more personal taste, ergonomics, and feature driven.

At this particular point in time, I am close to selling the "Orange" machine. If it works out, in its place will be an ASV-RC30, made right here in the US. It even has a Cat engine in it.

I do think a healthy global economy is good for all, here and abroad. I think too though, that we, the US, are way out of balance in the community. I said that in my first post.

While I welcome the discussion, I have not tried anyone in a criminal court for the color of tractor they drive. Nor the brand of computer they are sitting in front of. I am not holier than thou. I do not think you are less American because you drive a Mahindra, even when I'm driving my Farmall.

I would say that each of us had made some good points. I am not sure why you have been as agressive here, but, you know, sometimes I am in my beliefs and opinions.

It is interesting too, that while you agressively approach my post, you have not described at all where you stand. Others, like Trescrows, have described where they stand very well.

r0GuE · Dec 2, 2003

( Trescrows -

What I don't like is the insinuation that I or others are hipocrits 
What I don't like it how some folks (not necessarily you) tout "BUY AMERICAN" as some type of patriotic flag while ignoring the basic business principles associated with a global economy.

 I won't characterize your opinions or belittle them 
Look a little closer at your previous post. Sure appeared to be a lot of sarcasm in it to me.

 What I don't like is the insinuation that I or others are hipocrits 
No insinuation about it - Anyone who blasts with a bullhorn in my ear saying "BUY AMERICAN" yet don't themselves because they are "exempt" for whatever reason ($$$, convenience, etc). IS a hypocrite - per the definition.

Yes, there are valid reasons for NOT buying foreign goods (be it from Walmart, Kmart, Target, mom & pop shop - wherever) - some of which you outlined - but folks should let them stand on their own merits and stop this whole flag waving "I'm a better American than you because I buy U.S. whenever I can." attitude - I find THAT offensive. Perhaps that has what gotten my dander up on this thread. If we want to discuss the merits of foreign goods on the various characteristics (i.e. quality, price, etc.) that’s fine - and I even agree with you to a point on some of those aspects - but this whole “I’m more of a patriot” implication is way out of line. (Again, this aspect isn’t necessarily directed toward you.)

well apparently the business principles of many so called "American" companies are then incongruent with buisness principles or they would not keep lean sizing, downsizing, out sourcing and "just in time" themselves right out of buisness.

Those criticizing businesses when they modify their approach need to remember that it’s the CEO's responsibility to maximize stock value while NOT going out of business, compete effectively against the competition, minimize costs and maximize profits. - It’s NOT his responsibility to try and keep his competitors in business. We are living in a capitalistic society - not a communistic one.

There are many ways to do this- legally and illegally. Obviously the illegal methods are "off limits" and should be prosecuted, but the other ones are fair game and simply a part of the real world. Again, the whole aspect is to meet customer demands (price, quality, service, etc. - different customers prioritize these aspects differently) while providing a profit for the company, who then distributes it to the stock holders. (Funny how so many folks complain about “dern stockholders” when they are probably stockholders themselves! - i.e. 401K, IRA, etc.).

Regarding "downsizing" - while a useful tool at times, yes, companies that "downsize themselves in oblivion" are NOT using that tool wisely. Mass layoffs, etc. often only meet short term requirements for cash flow - why? Because unless there is a major shift in efficiencies, companies that do such that still have demand (i.e. you aren't in the buggy whip industry) will loose market share due to the lack of capacity.

Additionally, opportunity costs MUST be considered before downsizing and not just costs/revenues from the accounting perspective - that's why most CEO's don’t climb the corporate ladder from the accounting department - i.e. aspects such as customer good will, etc. are hard to measure but do lead to real dollars on the bottom line.

Are all American companies “wise” with regards to using tools such as downsizing? Nope - but some are and if they play their cards right, it is most likely a temporary condition if market demand increases or market share increases. (Before anyone takes offence to this, I’m not completely bashing accountants - they serve a necessary function and work very hard at what they do - what I’m saying is that they often have a hard time with nebulous areas where real hard numbers can’t be established prior to realization.)

That could be an extrapolation of what Ranchman said but I know it is not what he said, no it is in fact what I am saying, does this mean we agree?

Yes we do - to a degree. The reasons are a bit different though. The main reason some U.S. companies are going out of business are complacency. Be it ignoring upcoming competitors, being indifferent to customer demands, overpaying existing their existing workforce, living in the past, or simply making boneheaded business decisions - they got passed up.
)

Four score and seven years ago... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

This is getting heated,.. let's talk guns! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
See you all there.

RanchMan · Dec 2, 2003

RobertN -

Tractor color is a choice, choice of brands. However, even assembled .... 
You ignored my whole point about overseas ownership of the corporation and how that impacts the macroeconomic picture with regards to the "American worker."

If I were to buy a CUT right now, ... 
I thought that was the point of this whole thread - current economics and the need to "Buy American" to "keep jobs at home." (And of course how WM is really the devil.) /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 I would look at all options, but would start with the stuff most made here. 
So, once again, you are proving my whole point. If the "best" product (to whatever criteria you are prioritizing) happens to be American made, so be it - but “Made in the U.S.A” isn’t your first priority. Heck, you even admit you don’t know what the U.S. content of tractors was 5 years ago when you purchased or what it is now - I mean, if buying U.S. is sooooo important, why didn’t you do even a cursory research in to the facts of the matter??

Whatever your priorities are ($$$, quality, support network, etc.), it is obvious that "American Made" is not a "real" priority - if it was, as you stated earlier, you would put up with an inferior product at a higher price. My point? Lots of rhetoric being put forth but a lack of willingness to carry through or put forth any major effort to get the facts.

As a consumer, you probably would not know that. If, in fact, you did know that, then it may make for a more difficult decision.
Again - my point is that it is all good and well to SAY “buy American” but how much effort are such folks REALLY putting forward to compare and find the “most American” option? And if they DO know, it makes the decision “difficult”??? Once again, if putting up with “antiquated or pricy” stuff is no big deal as long as it’s made in the “good ‘ol USA”, then why would you say there would be any consideration otherwise? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When I do not, it is typically because the US item is very substandard... 
But you said that was no problem in your earlier post....???

Most times, if I can not afford it, I wait till I can, or go without.
You also said you are willing to pay more and subsidize U.S. companies that can’t compete (for whatever reason) on quality, price, etc. But explain how “going without” helps the U.S. factory worker - or you. I mean, how’s about going to an American made pic & shovel for your landscaping work and giving up that foreign tractor of yours? It’s very simple - because you need it and your customers would be unwilling to pay you to be inefficient in your work.

I believe the CUT market is pretty dang level product wise. 
The market - yes, but what about YOU. If you really believe this, why did you say your Kubota was the “Only” choice???

If it works out, in its place will be an ASV-RC30, made right here in the US.
I suspect your motivations are not due to manufacturing pedigree but more due to the product meeting your other priorities (whatever they are.)

I am not holier than thou.
Initial response to me sure comes across that way - along with some other posters in this thread.

I am not sure why you have been as agressive here...
Like anyone, I have “hot buttons.” Trespassers are one. Lawbreakers are another. Liars too. Don't EVEN get me started on the PETA crowd. In this post however, the button pushed is the one labeled “flagrant hypocrisy.” I have a real problem with people saying they believe one thing and then acting directly contradictory to their statement. THAT’s what irked me - along with the implication by some of their patriotic prowess because they say they “buy American” when in reality they make all sorts of excuses not to when it “hurts.” Part of having principles is sticking to them even when it isn’t comfortable.

...you have not described at all where you stand.
It should be obvious, but so be it. I believe in letting the free market decide. I believe in the responsibility of the CEO to run his company effectively - whether he be the head of a multinational/multibillion dollar corporation or the proprietor of a mom & pop shop. I believe in a competitive business environment - and may the “better” company win. I believe in efficiency and promoting stockholder wealth (yes, even the grandmas and grandpas of the world need money from their IRA’s from stock dividends.) I believe in people working to their full potential and not sitting back and leaching off their co-workers. I believe in taking care of ones customers/clients and employees because there are real benefits to one’s business in doing so. I believe in...... I could go on, but that should paint a pretty straight forward picture.

RanchMan · Dec 2, 2003

This is getting heated,.. let's talk guns!


Another religious topic - but one that is also close to my heart (so to speak). /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif