Water conditioner - Re-gen with no water?

[bczoom]

When I'm going to be away for awhile (several days), I'd like to shut off the main water coming in.

If I did so but didn't unplug the water conditioners, would they be damaged if they did their re-gen but didn't get any water?

I'd prefer not to unplug since the one in particular is computer controlled and would need to be re-programmed.

Thanks
Brian

 

[heehaw]

i can't see how they would do anything without the water: the water pressure causes all the cycles to work, so, no water, then they would just cycle thru with nothing happening..which shouldn't hurt a thing that i can see.
heehaw

 

[GaryQWA]

Going through the cycles with no water won't harm anything but ... coming home and using water until the next backwash or regeneration is not good for the mineral or resin which may become totally exhausted and need to be regenerated at the maximum salt dose for the volume of resin in the softener.

So do a manual backwash of any filter first and then when done, do a regeneration of the softener. Don't use water during either or you take water away from the equipment but also you get raw water. And next time, buy a control valve that doesn't lose programming when the power is off, or do the batteries need replacing? lol As an example, the Clack holds programming for 99 years and time of day for two hours.

Gay Slusser

 

[Richard]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( the Clack holds programming for 99 years and time of day for two hours. )</font>

What if you need to know the time of day in 50 years?

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

btw, we put our patio roofing project on top priority, havn't forgot about you when it comes to my softener. Just haven't got to it yet.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[GaryQWA]

Hi Richard. I wondered what happened to you and was going to look up a posse out there! BTW, fifty years I won't be here... but the way things are going, you may not need to know the time of day and probably all water will be softened with lazer beams or something exotic or water will be too expensive to use so you shouldn't need a softener. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Gary Slusser

 

[anthonyk]

Guys, we're making this way to difficult.
If the softener is a computerized (demand regenerated) system, it won't matter whether the water is on or off. The system will not go into regen because there will be no usage of water.
Don't bother unplugging it, don't worry about the valve, don't worry about anything. As long as it's a demand regen and not a manual timer. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[GaryQWA]

Man you guys are tough. But let's see... that's true 'except' with the electronic control valves which most are today and they have calendar override. That is a good thing if you're wanting to protect the life of your mineral and/or resin.... But it works on a timed basis and with power to the control valve, a backwash and/or regeneration usually will happen while you're away. Of course that depends on how close to the calendar day override you were when you left and how long you're gone (for the engineers amongst us). So unplugging the softener and resetting the time is the best and most accurate advice for anyone with an electronically metered/demand regenerated softener or filter; OR mechanical day timer controlled softener or filter (which most are). I think that nails it down for all but manually regenerated softeners and/or filters. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gary Slusser

 

[anthonyk]

The calender override statement is correct, however, it can be disabled, and even then it's typically set for 7 days on our systems.
Are yours less? The way he described the question, he was only going to have the water off for a few days. If that's the case, the calender override shouldn't be a concern.
Also, with the systems I'm familiar with, the only thing that would happen is that the valve would move through it's motion, then return to "in service" position. That should not cause any harm.

anthony

 

[GaryQWA]

The day you override at depends on the max days you want service to continue based on the sizing of the equipment and what it is being used to remove from the water. I size most softener capacity for once per week regeneration with a 24 hr reserve capacity built in and then 8 day calendar override. Others for heavy iron, up 2 to 5 ppm max with a Turbulator distributor tube and certain resin, for every 3 days with a 4 day override.

Yes he said for a few days but... if his last regeneration was say 4 days ago, he only has to go away for 3-4 days then for both of us a regeneration happens due to calendar override.

If a regeneration happens with no water the meter is reset. He uses water until the next regeneration BUT then the softener only regenerated what his salt dose puts back in the bed and eventually, after 2-3 weeks, he's getting hard water leakage through the bed and wondering why while thinking his softener isn't working. And he's right but has no idea it's because of that no water regeneration a few weks ago or what to do to 'fix' it.

I size for high salt efficiency (short salted) and most softeners are not set for max salt doses so either that are run out of salt to exhaustion will have to be regenerated at the max salt dose for the volume of resin. Doing that by adding additional water to the brine tank and then doing a manual regeneration at least twice with as little water used between them, is much more difficult than resetting the clock (and reprogramming some controls) to get the bed back from total exhaustion. Or said another way, to prevent hardness leakage later.

Do you use Autotrol controls?

Gary Slusser

 

[anthonyk]

I see why we approach this differently.
Our systems are set to regen at only 33% capacity to begin with.
Even with the extended usage (lack of regen, but meter reset), we're still well within capacity.
Even if we reached max capacity, the actual total amount of hardness to be removed is greater than our rating.
In other words, we rate the bed at 48k grain, but it's closer to 52.
Because of the conservative nature of the rating and the excess capacity, I don't see it as a problem. Of course, when he gets home, he could simply turn on the water, and initiate a manual regen. Then the problem is moot, and he'd be fine.
We don't use the autotrol. I personally like that valve, but we design and build our own.

Anthony

 

[GaryQWA]

Sorry, I really don't understand what you mean, or what you are doing.

Capacity is based on salt dosage. With 15 lbs/cuft of regular mesh resin you get 30k of capacity. Fine mesh will be 20+/-% higher; SST-60 about 30%.

What resin are you using; fine mesh, regular SST-60?

52k out of 48K, how's that? What volume of resin in cuft do you use in that softener? And what is the salt dose in lbs?

The actual total amount of hardness... you mean the max gpg the resin can handle? Most resin is capable of removing up to 100 grains per gallon. That isn't part of this problem of running the service run longer than normal and then regenerating with the same salt dose.

Gary Slusser

 

[anthonyk]

we use a non uniform fine mesh.
In other words, the resin bead is not a uniform size.
This allows us to have a greater surface area for ion exhchange to take place in the same volume of space.
I guess an analogy would be, if you filled a room with beach balls, you would have a certain amount of surface area.
If you filled it with beach balls, basketballs, baseballs, golf balls and BB, you have the same volume of space with more surface area.
Our systems typically range from half a cubic foot of resin up to 3 cubic feet. (that would be a really high capacity system.)
We also use proportional brining, which means we are not using the standard 12 to 15 lbs of salt to recapture a typical cubic foot of resin's hardness. We've found that sodium exchange efficiency is greater with multiple smaller regens than one massive. Also less chance of channeling and hard water leakage, as the bed is fluffed more often.
I don't endorse my company's brand on the site, but if you'd like to discuss it in person, feel free to send me a private message and I'll call. It's always interesting to see what other manufacturers are doing and to keep up with the competition.
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

anthony

 

[GaryQWA]

It sounds as if you are mixing resins or using Purolite's C-100e; they describe it as you have - vairous sized beads, which any non-standardized resin is when compared to say Sybron's C-249 and others. BTW, I use Purolite C-100e.

Proportional brining is/was a trade mark/patented Autotrol feature in their 269/463i control valve sold as a Technetic an now an Avantapure softener. Varaible brining is the same thing without the higher efficiency of the Autotrol distributor tube, which had the patent. It has a two part distributor tube through the freeboard area in the tank. I used to be one of five dealers in the US authorized by Autotrol to build my own softener with that control and distributor - I made the distributor and did not have to buy assembled units. It was also used in the rotary design Technetic 1000 and Technetic Plus controls and the 169/463i control valve. Those units are only sold through exclusive territory dealers through about 8 OEM distributors in the US. Fleck has 2 controls with variable brining, the 6700 and 7000 and are sold to any dealer anywhere as completed units.

BUT IMO any time there are more frequent regenerations, the unit uses more water in total on an annual basis and salt efficiency is questionable while the life of the resin is also. That's due to them very likely regenerating every day or two but certainly much more often than say the once per week of a correctly sized 'regular' regenerated softener.

But you don't get 52k of capacity out of a 1.5 cuft (48k) volume of resin without the use of a fairly high salt dose if not the maximum to do so. You need to understand this a bit better than I think you do, or you're not explaining it incorrectly.

The fully regenerated capacity of a 3 cuft softener using C-100e requires 15lbs/cuft= 45 lbs to get 90k. That is 90000/45= 2000 grains/lb used, which is terrible efficiency. If you need 20k of capacity for once/week regeneration, set the control to use 20K and dose at roughly 5 lbs (total) and that gives you roughly 3600 grains/lb. The SFR of a 3 cuft softener is 20 gpm.

This missing regeneration we are discussiing is more problematical in a propotional regenerated softener than in a regular softener.

So it is still best to unplug the unit if the water is turned off when you're gone; which it should be to prevent the possibility of serious water damage problems when no one is home.

Anthony, you're welcome to email or PM me if you want to discuss the correct sizing of a softener etc.. Or do a search for "softener sizing chart" with the "" and find those that mention SFR.

Gary Slusser

 

[anthonyk]

I'll pm you. We have systems on line here that have been working virtually non stop for 30 years, and that's the original resin bed. We do use carbon with the resin to reduce the chlorine, the primary culprit in the striation problems found in most resin, and I am familiar with the Sybron and Purolite as we have also used them both in the past.
I'm also familiar with the technetic, as they approached me when I owned my own company a few years ago. We tried their systems, and unfortunately, there were too many kinks. That was about 8 years ago or so and I believe they were introducing a new design. I'm sure they're better now. We installed about 40 units before giving up on it.

As for the efficiency, the amount of sodium dissolved is, of course, regulated my the amount of water dispensed. Less sodium, less water. I think we're splitting hairs here anyway, as we're talking about pennies worth of water, in either direction.

We want our systems to regen on average twice a week, not once, to avoid the channeling problems, etc. Our valve will monitor the amount of water use, and in 10% increments recapture only that which is necessary. In other words, if we have app. 37% capacity used, we'll regen at 40%. We really do not want to even approach 100 percent, because, as you stated, we would have terrible sodium/calcium exchange efficiency rates. Also, we are of course using soft water backwashing.
Our typical customers (please remember, we're talking residential systems on the average of 1 cubic foot) are using far less than one 40 lb bag of salt per month. Average dosage seems to be running between 2 and 4 lbs. Now that seems, to me, to be very efficient. FYI, in this area, the water is tyically running 8 to 10 grains.

To go back to the original question, I guess we'll just disagree on that one. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anthony

 

[GaryQWA]

My sizing usually provides for less than 10 lbs per regeneration, most in the 4-8 lb range, for a once per week regeneration unless there is iron. I don't have to worry about channeling but how do you provide for proper SFR with 1 cuft softeners?

I take it your're with Kinetico or Ecowater, or you have a softener unknown to me.

Gary Slusser

 

[bczoom]

Gary & Anthony,

I'm back from vacation. Left the water on (this time).
Thanks for the replies.
You guys went waaayyyy over my head in most of the posts.

The unit I have is a RainSoft. The carbon tank is on a 6 day timer, the pellet tank is the computer one. I have not seen in the manual anything about a day timer overriding the usage.

So.... For this unit/manufacturer, can I turn off the water and let them go through their cycles without water?

Brian

 

[GaryQWA]

Welcome back and I hope the vacation went well.

If a metered control valve, it won't regenerate unless you have calendar override set. But IMO you shouldn't go away and let the water in in any house.

With a mechanical or electronic day timer, which your RainSoft softener may very well be, they regenerate/backwash based on how many days since the last one so if it regenerates, or the carbon filter tries backwashing, with no water, and you come home say 3 days later, there would be 3 days left before it regenerates/backwashes if you don't do a manual regeneration/backwash. That means it/they is/are 3 days past when it/they should have regenerated/backwashed and you'll more than likely run out of soft water before the softener regenerates again or the filter backwashes (which can cause channeling of the bed). Then to get the bed back to full regeneration, you have to regenerate with the full salt dose for the volume and type of resin you have and then repeat it a second time with as little water use between the two as possible,

The max salt dose is 15 lbs/cuft of regular mesh resin. Any resin manufacturer's web site will support what I'm saying. Go here to ask your question and see:
http://www.puroliteusa.com/fr_bulletinboard.htm

If your softener is not set up for 15lbs/cuft, which most are not, then you have to manually add water at the rate of 3 lbs/gal to the brine tank for the difference between your salt dose and the maximum/cuft of resin. Not fun IMO. Say you use 6lbs/cuft, that's 2 gals of water so you'd add 3 more gallons; both times.

So the best choice is to unplug it/them and do a manual regeneration/backwash (not at the same time; one before the other soon after returning home and I suggest the filter first, it's usually about 20 mintutes until finished.

Gary Slusser