water hybrid???

[SPYDERLK]

The next thing we'll hear is that Uri Geller really can bend spoons...

Why arent there any studies with empirical data showing it doesnt work??
larry

 

[Bill Barrett]

It is an SUV...12 MPG before and 16+ after..[/QUOTE

In the great mileage search, I wonder how much is components, and how much is subconsciously changing driving habits? Someone installs a device, is trying for mileage, and unconsciously changes driving style.
I picked up a couple mpg from braking different.

 

[john_bud]

Why arent there any studies with empirical data showing it doesnt work??
larry

There is a HUGE body of evidence that it does not work. You have to be able to read and think about things beyond the normal surface.

Fer instance, many of the scammers tout a 1972 NASA study that shows a 12% gain in fuel economy using hydrogen.

What they don't mention is that they used 5% hydrogen in the incomming air by volume. A normal 5 liter V8 would need up to 250 liters of hydrogen per minute. Most of the systems generate under 1 liter of total gas per minute (2/3 of a liter of hydrogen). The Nasa people also leaned out the air fuel ratio to around 22:1 to 25:1. So lean it wouldn't easily ignite. The 5% hydrogen is more flamable and easier to ignite than gasoline at 25:1, so you can lean it out and save fuel. But if you don't have at least 4% hydrogen, then the hydrogen is not flammable and will fail to be an ignition aid leading to lean mis-fire.

Nother fer instance. On the forums that support the hho movement, there are about as many people that have gains as have no gain or slight loss in mpg. If it works by a scientific princple it should work all the time. The variability of results is an indication of it being a scam.

As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs". That's an axium of science. When scientist's stray from it, they get into trouble (cold fusion, human cloning, etc). Unfortunately, most people don't even follow the rigors of normal scientific proofs and thus believe mumbo jumbo blindly.

 

[Rara Avis]

Why arent there any studies with empirical data showing it doesnt work??
larry

It is up to them to PROVE IT DOES WORK...

As Spock of Star Trek said: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity, I need not see it fall to know that it has, in fact, fallen"

 

[SPYDERLK]

There is a HUGE body of evidence that it does not work. You have to be able to read and think about things beyond the normal surface. SNIP
Nother fer instance. [[On the forums that support the hho movement, there are about as many people that have gains as have no gain or slight loss in mpg.]] If it works by a scientific princple it should work all the time. The variability of results is an indication of it being a scam.

As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs".

[[Thats just it. There should always be a slight loss unless there is something going on that is not taken into account. I cant find any evidence of true scientific study backed by empirical trials showing that electrolized water added in low percentage to point of use fuel does not result in a net gain of extracted work. Note that that is not the same as anet gain of energy, merely possible less loss to radiator and tpipe.

In interminable statement of how thermodynamics doesnt support the claim there is no active inquiry into possible hidden effects that I would term quasi catalyst. What happens in a fuel charge that has a bunch of multi-hypersonic little bullets bouncing thru the other constituents? Its a pretty short stretch to suspect that this would be beneficial in some extraordinary way.
larry

 

[john_bud]

[[Thats just it. There should always be a slight loss unless there is something going on that is not taken into account.

larry

Exactly correct and well stated too.

The "something" is very likely to be a placebo effect. You should get better mileage so you hit the peddle softer, etc etc. I know a few people in the 80's that used "cow magnets" to align fuel molecules and swore they got 20% better mileage. The EPA did perform fuel economy test with and without cow magnets and found zero change.

The people with positive results often boast of diddling with the O2 sensors, the MAF and MAP sensors, the ECM and other electronic control systems. Plus they pump up the tires, add a new filter, change to thin visc oil, etc.

In fact, one scam site's instructions to installers is to to just that. Install as part of a "system" where they tune up the car with new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil change to thin syn, trans fluid change to syn, diff fluid to syn, check&repair brakes, new air filter and pump the tires up to 15 pounds OVER rated max. Whew! I'd bet they see a positive improvement.

Unfortunately, the US EPA has stated that you can improve your mileage by 30% by changing driving style. Read some hyper miler forums and see what they do to improve.

Time will tell, I'm willing to wait.

 

[SteveInMD]

There are plenty of car manufacturers that would love to market a more fuel efficient car. They are selling like hotcakes. As soon as we see a production car with this system it will be worth looking at. Until then, it's a scam in my book.

 

[frank_miller]

It is an SUV...12 MPG before and 16+ after..[/QUOTE

In the great mileage search, I wonder how much is components, and how much is subconsciously changing driving habits? Someone installs a device, is trying for mileage, and unconsciously changes driving style.
I picked up a couple mpg from braking different.

Um, same roads for the last 15 years on the job..Went from 12 to 16.X (+/-)...Say what anyone wants, I have kept track of it since I bought the SUV in 2002...
Same issue with dino vs synthetic etc...Can lead a horse to water.........

 

[SPYDERLK]

I'm checking back in. Is there no one out there who has tried this water hybrid thing or knows someone who has & with what results? I thought there were a lot of fellow cobblers on this site. Most of my cobbling goes for naught, but if we are retired & able, I think cobbling is required.
OLDGEEZER

Why arent there any studies with empirical data showing it doesnt work??
larry

It strikes me that a small emergency generator would make a good test platform. Battery charger run off gen. Other loads, resistive like heaters or incandescent lights, taylored to the gen. Measure fuel consumption with loads only, then with same loads + batt charger/battery running the electrolysis. If it even runs the same amount of time on a tank it means theres a benefit. Any volunteers?
larry

 

[Tig]

Frank, what make and model is your 2002 SUV?