Water Hydrant troubleshoot help.

[CobyRupert]

Need Barn Water Hydrant (Campbell) troubleshooting help.
In unheated barn.
Last night was coldest of year -20F, today's high was single digits and teens. The handle won't move beyond the first 1/4 swing "unlock" (Won't lift the internal rod) . Got a butane torch and heat handle. No go. Heated the bottom of pipe with torch, thought I got it, as I could hear gurgling. Pipe got too warm to the touch. But no water ever came and handle never freed?

1)Anybody ever have one freeze up?
2) How did you unfreeze it? How long would it take propane heat to travel down and unthaw? (Wife had hairdryer on it for 20-30 min, I put butane torch on it for 30+minutes, heard it gurgling for 15+ minutes. Was this not long enough?)
2) How did it freeze? If the valve was leaking by, wouldn't the water leak out the bottom drain? Do I have a ground saturation problem?
3) It's got to be frozen above the valve right? That's why the stem doesn't move?
4 I must of heard water boiling in the pipe right? I understand that water doesn't circulate down in a tube, but if it can boil water down below the flame level, wouldn't conductivity of pipe and stem at least melt the ice? I heard it for a good 15 minutes.

Background info:
Second winter using a Camwater hydrant in the non-heated barn. Never had one before. Last winter had really cold spells of below zero, everything worked fine. Only the wife and daughter use it.

This year when it first got cold (20's and 10's F. lows) wife says "the handle sticks". She goes back with the hair dyer, hits the handle for a "less than a minute" and it would free up and water would flow.

To me that meant somehow some residual water in the handle, maybe where the stem comes through to the handle, turned to ice. I don't think this is related to today's problem right?

A week ago (a quick 20's/10's F drop right after a wet 40/50's F. water-soaked spell) the handle won't move again, she says putting heat on handle doesn't work. I go down to the barn, about 15 seconds of hairdryer at the bottom of the pipe (floor penetration) gets water dripping.

I wrote it off as maybe the soil was so wet/saturated , the tube didn't drain and the quick temp drop froze it.

 

[pmsmechanic]

We used to water cattle when we were kids out of a hydrant. Of course every once in a while we would forget to turn it off and it would be frozen. Dad would just get a kettle with hot water in it and pour it over the pipe. There was only one time that I remember that that didn't work.

 

[threedogs]

Similar thing just happened to our hydrant on New Year's Day thought it was strange cause we've had colder weather and never had a problem before, thought maybe it was because it had been so wet then the temp dropped. I put some heat tape and insulation on it, left the heat tape plugged in for a couple hours and the hydrant started working. Froze up again with this cold spell so we turned the heat tape on while at work and she worked this evening.

 

[Raspy]

I had one freeze up when I forget to disconnect the garden hose from it. This kept it from draining down.

Sounds like yours has a clogged orifice at the bottom and can't drain down.

 

[rtimgray]

Possibly several causes, most of which will probably involve having to dig up the hydrant to repair or replace.

My guess would be either the seal at the bottom of the hydrant is leaking just a little bit, allowing some water to pass through, leak out the weep hole, saturate the ground and freeze. Or it could just be a ground saturation issue, separate from any leaks but just due to groundwater - if it's in a relatively well-drained location, that's probably not it.

Or as mentioned above, the weep hole may be clogged/plugged, and it's not draining down, and then it freezes.

I have a total of 8 "frost free" hydrants around my farm, and there is one near a barn that has a drainage issue. If it rained a lot and then got cold, there wasn't enough drainage in the area to get the water away and it would freeze below grade. I ended up digging it out and putting in a lot more large stone to create a bigger drainage basin. This is the first winter since I have done that, it is got down to about 6 degrees F yesterday and the hydrant still worked - but, it's been pretty dry the last several days here.

I would keep on trying a torch for a little while longer - if it's frozen solid, it's going to take a long time to melt.

Good luck and take care.

 

[300UGUY]

I had a hydrant in my barn, it worked great for years. Then I plowed out a driveway to the barn, because I started keeping a truck in the barn. Taking the snow off the ground, and driving over where the pipe was buried. It survived -15 before I did this, after, if it got much below +20, it would freeze up. The snow insulates it, and driving over the pipe area drives the frost down. I stopped plowing it out, and driving over it, it stopped freezing up.

 

[CobyRupert]

Follow up:
Went out again and hit it again with the propane touch. Could hear the water boiling in it for a good 35-40 minutes, had actual steam coming out of it for 15-20. The (above ground) pipe was too hot to touch (I started worry if I would cook the seal at the handle?) , yet it still stayed frozen. Finally after about 45 minutes of heating it let loose.
Amazing (well maybe not) how heat DOESN'T travel down a vertical pipe.

When I went to shut it off I noticed it stayed "dribbling" unless I worked the handle a couple times. Hmmm? That's not good, put it does point to a cause. I mentioned this to the wife when I finally got inside the house at 11:00 pm! (Those damm bloody horses!) She say "Oh yeah, sometimes you have to work the handle a few times to get it to shut off." :banghead:

Looks like I'll be pulling the stem this weekend.

 

[travlitt]

Follow up:
Went out again and hit it again with the propane touch. Could hear the water boiling in it for a good 35-40 minutes, had actual steam coming out of it for 15-20. The (above ground) pipe was too hot to touch (I started worry if I would cook the seal at the handle?) , yet it still stayed frozen. Finally after about 45 minutes of heating it let loose.
Amazing (well maybe not) how heat DOESN'T travel down a vertical pipe.

When I went to shut it off I noticed it stayed "dribbling" unless I worked the handle a couple times. Hmmm? That's not good, put it does point to a cause. I mentioned this to the wife when I finally got inside the house at 11:00 pm! (Those damm bloody horses!) She say "Oh yeah, sometimes you have to work the handle a few times to get it to shut off." :banghead:

Looks like I'll be pulling the stem this weekend.

Might try adjusting the rod some ..Making it a little longer will force the bottom seal to seat tighter..

 

[oosik]

If you will be doing repair on the hydrant then I'd look at increasing the insulation around the vertical pipe and maybe even making a bigger drainage area at the bottom. Spray foam insulation works great and is easy. Also, I'd consider an above ground insulated "hat" for the hydrant in your coldest wx. Easy to put on/take off.

 

[Budweiser John]

Frozen water hydrends are the worlds biggest PITA.
I've had some preventive success by insulating the stand pipe and using a heat tape. Purchase a heat tape of the approiate length and wrap it around the pipe. Then take a piece of 3 inch PVC pipe and split it length wise with a band saw, or saber saw, and after applying some more insulation around said pipe place the two halves of the PVC over the insulation and secure with duct tape.
This probably won't thaw an all ready frozen hydrant but it goes a long way to preventing the problem.

Now tell me again, what's with this bond between women and horses?

 

[drssg]

The dribbling sounds important to me. Mine has an adjustment to control how it drains when shut off. The directions suggest getting a full bucket of water, turn off the handle, then put the hydrant nozzle below water level. If it's adjusted correctly, it will suck water from the bucket.

It might also be worth trying some heat tape.

 

[aczlan]

Might try adjusting the rod some ..Making it a little longer will force the bottom seal to seat tighter..

Ayep. With ours that use a setscrew, trying to force it open when frozen will mess with that adjustment and can cause it to leak.
As for the amount of heat needed, remember you are trying to heat a metal pipe in the frozen ground...
The guy who installed ours put a piece of 4" PVC over the hydrant to ~3' out of the ground when he installed them and filled it with small (3/4 minus) gravel.

Aaron Z

 

[woodchipper]

You have two distinct problems here. The first is your foot valve is frozen. The second, is no, or poor lubrication.
For now, you may want to wrap around some heat tape, and insulate the pipe to the top. then you may want to put a thick layer of straw for two feet around the pipe. Wait 6 to twelve hours, and try again.
The second problem, is a lack of tubrication. Come spring, you will have to turn the water off(pump). Then disasemble the whole hydrant. Clean all parts. Reassemble with a good amount of lubricant (FDA aprouved, non toxic) Petroleum gelly could prove to be a good one. As you will install the hydrant back, wrap around your heat tape (a ten feet long piece will be more than plenty), starting at the bottom, going up. Then put the pipe insulation over it.
If you are not inclined on doing so, you may want to replace your current hydrant with a longer one. So it will be imbeded deeper into the ground. They go up to 7' in length. Also, your crush stone layer has to be one foot deep and one foot in diameter.
Problem solved forever!!
Do yourself a favor, do not force the lever, and do not attempt to make any adjustment while frozen!!! That's a NO NO, as you will be looking at major leeking when it thaws for good.:shocked:

 

[SandburRanch]

You may find the plunger has failed to some degree. I've found that from the factory, the handle is adjusted way tighter than need be and eventually the rubber is cut / fails around the seat edges. Very little downward pressure is required to prevent leakage through that small hole even at 60 psi. I can hold the rod down by hand to add packing at the top end. For adjustment, the instructions sometimes gives the angle we should feel the plunger touch and I've found less plunger pressure will do the job just as well and not cut the rubber plunger.

A small crack won't cause an operation problem of freezing until it fails to a point the leak is beyond the drainage potential but that's a fine line to draw. Locating repair parts isn't much fun and I've resorted to replacing the hydrant. Not all are created equal so look for quality. The extra 10 or 12 bucks you might pay will often make a huge difference in the operation aggravation.

A couple of ways to determine if it is draining. One mentioned, a cup of water held up to the spigot opening and watch the water be siphoned out of the container. Can actually be timed/measured. Another is to place the palm of your hand over the opening and feel / hear the vacuum. If you leave a hose connected and in the horse trough it will siphon all the water from the trough if the trough is at a higher elevation than the hydrant drain. Been there - done that.

 

[MrWhippy]

If it is just the seal at the bottom (which it sounds like) you can unscrew the head and rod assembly and rebuild without digging up the hydrant. It really takes 2 people to remove the head though. One has to hold the pipe with a pipe wrench to prevent it from turning at all. It's good to have a reference mark to the ground, just in case. The other needs a wrench and section of pipe to start turning the head. PB blaster and heat can help.