Introduction and pole barn planning help

[Millercameron97]

Gents,

I joined up the other day after seeing Cat Fever's barn thread and now I'm going through an over planning existential crisis. That's probably not a bad thing, but I'm hoping I can get some insight and direction from the guys more experienced than me. I've built a little 8x12 shed in my residential backyard, remodeled a few houses (my own), giant porch addition, and kind of an all around jack of all trades. I've worked offshore for 16 years now and have a bit of a knack for rigging, lifting, fastening etc. But, I've never taken on a project of this size. My wife and I sold our Neighborhood home last year and bought a 14 acre plot of rolling hill and 50/50 wooded, pasture property. Chasing a lifestyle neither one of us have really ever lived, but excited about nonetheless. I quickly bought a New Holland powerstar 75 without a place to put it, and a 32 ft trailer. My wife didn't really like that much but, it's a necessity so. She's focusing on our house, I'm focusing on my barn. I believe I have the size narrowed down to either a 40x80 or 100 if I can swing that. I have gone back and forth between red iron and post frame and eventually landed on post frame for one, because the cost of steel is super high and the labor to erect them, also very high. I'm not a steel guy per say, but I can deal with wood, so I figure I'm saving quite a bit by handling what labor I can. I am struggling a bit though with what exactly is the best way to go about it.

For instance do you uses 6x6's? 6x6's seem kinda small... any reason why you don't use something bigger (other than cost) 10x10? 12x12?

is it better do do the slab first and use the wet set brackets to keep the post out of the ground? If so, what about wind shear loads?

How far do you bury them if you bury them?

Do you wrap the beam or tar it before you concrete it in? Do you leave it open and put gravel in the bottom of the pier?

Do you worry about uplift? should you run some rebar through the post before concrete to help with that?

Should you do the bell piers or just a straight hole?

Do you use perimeter beams and interior beams in the concrete and do a monolithic pour?

What thickness concrete for tractor, truck, trailer, maybe some heavy equipment later. Rebar size and spacing?

This is what I have come up with so far. I'm in the southeast Texas area, and the soil samples we've gotten back for the house site indicate use of helical piers. A foot of top soil, about 8 ft of clay, 3 ft of loamy stuff, and then around 12-15 ft it gets to be a watery, sandy, soupy mixture. I don't think I'll go so far as to use those piers for the barn build, but it does have me a bit nervous, maybe for no good reason. I admittedly don't know anything about that part of it. I have about 3ft of fall from one corner of the building to the opposite, diagonally, and I've already sourced out a fellow that will over dig the site and come in with 6" lifts of compacted select fill until we get above grade. I think I want to do a more robust post, a 10x10 is where I am right now, with about 4 ft buried, 14 ft eave height. I believe I've decided on some steel trusses that bolt together at the peak. They have the purlin saddles welded in for a quick and easy layout, which I think will be a benefit from a DIY stand point. They also run on 10 ft centers so it comes out cheaper than wood trusses. One of the things I'm undecided on is the sheathing vs wall girts. It appears to me that sheathing would help more with potential racking with stronger winds. I realize this is approaching a stick framed building but I truly do want strength and longevity in this building. Also, considering I want to eventually insulate this whole building, a sheet good, especially a radiant barrier, would be all the more better in my eyes. It gets hotter the hinges of hells gate down here and I don't like to sweat on purpose. I think it would be awesome to have a cabinet building project, vehicle restoration etc, whatever it may be, with something to knock down the temps to even 80 degrees or so. Zip system sheathing looks awesome and acts as a vapor barrier too but that gets pretty costly. Maybe its all not worth it and I just stick to the simple 2x6 wall girts... talk me in or out of it! Do's and dont's!

I'm sure I've left out plenty of talking points so feel free to add them. Please give me your critiques if you have the time!

 

[Tinhack]

Welcome to the Forum!

I'm going to limit my response because it sounds like you need an engineer instead of a bunch of guys pretending to be farmers.
But I'll say this, if you plan on driving trucks over the top of your barn, 10x10 or 12x12 post beams should be fine. Because I don't think you want to hear I used 4x4s for posts when I built mine 25+ years ago. But I think treated lumber was a lot better back then.

As a side note, I had to look up "existential crisis". You should fit in here well. I just hope nobody sell you a gun.

 

[KennyG]

There are a lot of people on here with more experience than me, but I will hit a few high points. Forget about oversized posts. Pole barns are, by nature, light structures and don't need that kind of support. My 40 foot wide pole barn has 4x6 posts and is perfect after about 40 years. Worry more about the protecting from water. Make sure the site is graded such that water NEVER stands at the surface by the posts. That's where failure will occur.

I like an installation where the posts are 3-1/2 to 4 feet in the ground, backfilled with gravel to promote drainage, with the floor poured after it's framed up, but I'm in the North so there may be other ideas for the South.

Also, 2x6 girts are also a waste. Just use 2x4. The posts in the ground resist racking.

The metal trusses are pretty neat, but think about the overall complexity and cost. If you are concerned about heat and insulation, a ceiling is needed. That's the highest priority. Wrap the walls with house wrap, and insulate the walls later. The best approach for a ceiling is interior metal. However, if your trusses are over 4 feet spacing, you will have to add a second layer of framing for fastening the ceiling. I have wood trusses on 4 foot centers. It's incredibly strong and the ceiling is fastened directly to the trusses. I have a vapor barrier and then the metal under the trusses and blown in insulation.

 

[duffer]

Right across the road from me a guy build a 40x60 "Barndominium". So called "Pros" built it. What a P.O.S. You will undoubtedly do a MUCH better job than those guys, because:
1. It's your place. 2. You're mechanically inclined. 3. You aren't lazy. and 4. You'll take the time to do it right.

I would strongly suggest you subscribe to this guy's You Tube channel. He's the best I've seen on Post and Beam. Tons of good insight, tips and tricks to make it right. I particularly like the way he makes his posts. (He laminates his own, or has a vendor do it for him now) And he builds monster size buildings with just 2 guys, sometimes 3.

(RR Buildings)

 

[Rustyiron]

Welcome to TBN Miller
I'll agree with all of the above.
If you look at the linked YouTube, go back a ways where he's building AG type buildings. More recently he's drifted away from the basics and is building houses, talking about tools and his trailer.
About the basics, that's a very big building for your first go at it.
I've also found that a big "footprint" that you've mentioned is not always the best way to go. It's hard to effectively utilize the space and a general, multi use shop needs wall space or a very disciplined individual to achieve order.
Why not cut your teeth on a smaller, simpler building to house some equipment that just needs to be out of the sun and rain. I guarantee the education you'll get from this building will put you miles ahead with anything that you might build after that.
Traditionally a post frame is just that, a pair of (wood) posts with a truss sitting on top, generally 8' apart. They are typically the "foundation" as well and only a local (to your site) will give you specific suggestions as to handle the soils ability to support the building. I've become a fan of  not burying wood for such a critical component of a building and favour either the "wet set" brackets into a thickened edge slab (think grade beam)
or the concrete base "perma column".
Get a smaller building done first. Think of it as practice that you can park your chit in!

 

[Doorman63]

Our building that is being built….behind schedule (of course) uses the following set up


5.5” slab with wet set post bases
No rot for the posts
Slab is done before building is built
Allows contractor to drive a sizzor lift everywhere easily
4x6 posts (I think)

10’ centers on posts

2x6 “bookshelf” girts and perlins
Bookshelf style gives you a 5.5” cavity for insulation on the walls and ceiling
It’s a bit more work to install between posts and trusses

 

[Millercameron97]

Welcome to TBN Miller
I'll agree with all of the above.
If you look at the linked YouTube, go back a ways where he's building AG type buildings. More recently he's drifted away from the basics and is building houses, talking about tools and his trailer.
About the basics, that's a very big building for your first go at it.
I've also found that a big "footprint" that you've mentioned is not always the best way to go. It's hard to effectively utilize the space and a general, multi use shop needs wall space or a very disciplined individual to achieve order.
Why not cut your teeth on a smaller, simpler building to house some equipment that just needs to be out of the sun and rain. I guarantee the education you'll get from this building will put you miles ahead with anything that you might build after that.
Traditionally a post frame is just that, a pair of (wood) posts with a truss sitting on top, generally 8' apart. They are typically the "foundation" as well and only a local (to your site) will give you specific suggestions as to handle the soils ability to support the building. I've become a fan of  not burying wood for such a critical component of a building and favour either the "wet set" brackets into a thickened edge slab (think grade beam)
or the concrete base "perma column".
Get a smaller building done first. Think of it as practice that you can park your chit in!

You know I've thought about building a separate smaller building. From a budgetary stand point I'm inclined to, but I'm incredibly hard headed and OCD and I really just hate the idea of having multiple outbuildings. I've had this one stuck in my head for many moons now, and I'm pretty sure I will end up hurling myself into that project. Not until I've thoroughly over planned it though!

I really like that wet set bracket and I've watched a bunch of RR videos. It does appear to me that keeping the post out of the ground solves perhaps the biggest problem, eventual rot. But it also makes me grimace a little bit. The bracket is secured in the concrete, but the weakest point HAS to be that bolted connection. I truly don't know which way is better. And those little brackets are high dollar... They're as much as the post! I can get into the 10x10's for the cost of the 6x6 and the perma columns, which is what drove me to that determination.

I'm 36 this year, not sure if I'll die in this house we're building or not, but seems like getting 50 years out of one isn't a ridiculous feat, regardless of how you do it. I'm just naturally inclined to overbuilding and questioning the crap out of everything. I bought a 75 hp cab tractor for a 14 acre property lol. I'm out of control and I like my projects to be that way too I guess.

 

[ericm979]

There's also pre-cast concrete perma-columns. The wood posts bolt on above ground.

Have you looked into the local codes, permits and inspections required? It can range from nothing to incredibly onerous. If I was in an area with no required permits and inspections, or you're going without, I'd still want to do it to code. A lot of what's in the building codes is to save the builder from expensive or dangerous mistakes.

Your description of the geology and the helical piers for the house foundation makes me wonder if posts set to a normal depth would be sufficient. (and also if I can use those for my project... I'll be checking with my builder)

If you are going to condition the space, take care for the design and execution to provide good air sealing and effective insulation. That will pay off in decreased costs in the long run. If you insulate the ceiling make sure the attic above it is well ventilated.

The shoptalk forum can be a source of useful info.

 

[rScotty]

Engineering wise, I know what works for barns where I am....have no idea what works structurally where you are - and I notice that most of your questions are structural. It just all depends on local conditions.

Glad to see that you got a soil test. If I were doing your project I'd have all the same questions and my next step would be to find someone locally that builds barns for a living - and pay them to come out and educate you. Maybe do that twice. There is often a local group of part time builders/farmers who are very good at building a particular type of barn. I'd go with what their experience, and adapt your design to fit that experience.

If it's not a type of barn they are familiar with, look elsewhere. Check with local Amish or Mennonite groups to see if they have a barn-building team.

Our barn was built for our location with hard winters, high winds and some flooding. It is great for use here - but not sure how much translates to your place. So much of barn design is for local conditions. Ours is way overbuilt to be tremendously strong. A nearby creek periodically floods. Pole shed type 20x50 with 6x6 selected poles that were pressure treated creosote (like utility poles are treated) and then sunk 6 to 8 feet using a well driller to poke the holes. Poles are aligned and then backfilled with concrete. Barn is then framed in with treated 2x6 - doubled where necessry and double fastened. Facing walls is with 2x4 frames plus 5/8 & 3/4" good grade exterior fir plywood. Rafters are 2x8 and 2x10 with 3/4" exterior ply. Floor is half dirt and half concrete poured after the build. Steel shingles complete the roof. It has it's own power and generator.

Good luck & keep us posted.
rScotty

 

[SmallChange]

You're way ahead of me. But I can add the following:

It is REALLY nice to have a chain hoist on a trolly on an I beam, so it can lift anywhere along a line. I have that. At 65 I need it more than you, but you're thinking for the future, right? Better still would be if the I beam could travel so it could lift anywhere in a rectangle. It's much easier to plan for proper footings (feeting?) before you have a slab.

I also wish I had a better situation for hosing things out and getting water to drain. It would have been easy if I had planned for it.

Plan space for fuel storage and attachments if you want those things indoors, which is really nice.

My tractor storage area (one closed off 10' by 20' bay in a 20' by 40' pole barn) is a happy place for me. I actually put photos I like on the inside of the main door. Also I put up a really old drawing of what a tractor storage area should look like. That tractor has all steel wheels, with a straight front axle that pivots in the middle and has chains for steering it. The area includes a forge and an anvil. I get all warm inside just looking at it.

When we are talking about building something you'll be happy with, why hold back?