Water in my crawl space: how best to drain it?

[EddieWalker]

Investorguy,

Sounds like your doing your homework and are considering all the options out there.

It could just be terminology here, but I'm even more confused about the source of water than before. You mention how soggy the fields are and how they clay holds water. This suggests to me that you have what I call "ground saturation" wich probably isnt the correct term, so please bear with me.

The surroundling land is saturated with water down to a level that the material/dirt will allow. Than you get massive runnoff when it rains. Here it takes an inch or two of rain, than most of what falls runs off the surface causeing all sorts of problems.

Your home sounds like it sits in the middle of a field that holds lots of water when it rains. After awhile, it dries out and so does your basement.

To my understanding, ground water is totally different and I'm having trouble thinking this is your problem. When the foudation was dug, they went down further than your crawlspace. There are footings below the surface that actually hold and support your house. How deep are these? I don't know, but if your water table is so close to the surface, than I'd think they would have wet holes when they dug your footing.

Another thing that makes me doubt that your water table is that his is your home would be sitting on wet soil. How would that support your home? I've dug down to the water table on my land while digging my lake. It's very unstable and just walking on the water saturated clay is like walking on a water bed. I know I'm not from your area or understand your conditions, but to me, it seems like your house would be sinking or settleing if it was sitting right at the top of the water table.

In California, where I used to live and did some work, they are building homes on land fill nest to the SF Bay on tidal wetlands. The houses are on specially designed, floating slabes with massive pilons driven into the ground to support the homes. 2,000 sq ft homes starting at $700,000 have very, very expensive foundations. Even with all the engineering and special work, the pipes are all flexible that enter these homes.

Does your home move or is there any settling?

This brings me back to my thinking that it's not a high water table, but drainage. If the surrounding land is saturated with water, then it coming into your crawlspace from the sides.

If you don't have a perimiter drain, or if it's not working properly, than there is nothing to stop it from continuing to happen.

I've also never had a basement or worked on a home with one. I've read stories here and other sources that indicate to me that it's quite a challange to keep them dry.

The problem is that concrete IS NOT waterproof. It is pourus and water will seep through it, not to mention every seam and crack.

If you pour concrete on teh bottom of your crawspace to raise the leve of the floor to above where the water currently reaches, are you sure it wont continue to come in from the sides and just sit that much higher? You could very easily just be raising the level the water sits in the bottom of your crawlspace.

How does the water leave it now?

I think it's coming in from the sides and very slowly draining down through the dirt bottom.

The reason you have water there long after a rain is that the clay soil you have acts like a pond. It drains very slowly and you probably have more water coming in from the sides of your walls as fast as it drains. After the fields dry out to a certain level, the bottom will drain faster than it's coming in and your floor will dry out.

I hope this makes sense.

As to checking on your water table, you might try a well driller. They know more about that than anybody else. Diggign the hole might not tell if it's coming from the bottom or from the sides. I'm having doubts on this now.

Do you have a post hole digger? How are you gonna put in those power poles you bought?

This brings up another question. If you dig your holes for your poles, will they be sitting in the soil saturated by the water table? If in fact it's that close to the surface. How will you keep them straight and in place if the bottoms of your holes are mud?

Good luck and thanks for such an interesting post,
Eddie

 

[inveresk]

Just got back from a couple days in Vancouver during which I've been off line.

Investorguy I haven't bought a plow yet but thank you for your offer of a loan of yours. I'm still at the field drain installation stage but have had to call a halt because the field is too wet in places. I'll complete as soon as conditions allow then plow and till. I should be running by your way in the next couple of weeks during a short trip I have to make to Port Townsend to help a friend put up a shed. I'd be happy to bring a dumpy level and carry out a field survey so we can plot the relationship of the solum to the outfall ditch. PM me if you think this would be helpful.

To bugstruck and others. I agree a lot more investigation is needed before raising the solum becomes a hard decision. I agree with Eddie that the drains need to be explored and that surface water run off could be the cause. A trial pit or two needs to be dug to see if and where the circuit drain is installed and whether this connects into the surface water drains. Also, to know the water table location near the house would be helpful.

Paddy, if I was oversensitive and took offence where none was intended, I apologise. Can I ask that we put this disagreement behind us and move on, hopefully with no hard feelings, in a way that allows us both to feel happy to continue to contribute to the forum without either of us feeling the need to body swerve the other.

I think there's been a collective pull of knowledge and informed opinion that covers all possible options and appropriate solutions and I'll be interested to find out what the real problem is and the best fix for it.

 

[Paddy]

Solving InvesterGuy's problems, that's what we are here to do. As an engineer I always take on the mind set of "using the least amount of material and labor to get the job done". That is the job of an engineer. Anybody can overbuild a post/beam, wall thickness or what ever issue jumps at us. I meant no offence to you, and my wording 'get real" should have been let's get realistic. it's a lot of material to move in some tight spaces. Maybe I'm to optimistic that the situation can be solved by other methods. I would completely exhaust all chances of drainage first. I do feel poring a slab would seal it off. The surface can be sealed as well as the joints to the wall.

As stated a few times, his elevations needs to be measured. Your offer to help him with this is quite kind. I hope he has the abilty for a gravity drain not only for the house but his yard/field.

So, back to the table, let's solve InvesterGuy's water issue so he can give some good investment tips!

Patrick

 

[Investorguy]

Thanks guys.

@ Paddy

I'll try to talk to a concrete pumper this week. Labor included.

I'll see if I can get inveresk to help me measure out the lines. If that won't work, I'll find another way.

I am building a list of May-June projects to try once the place drains out completely.


@ MarkV
-Welcome to the discussion. Get comfortable; we're likely to be here a while longer.

I too am skeptical of getting any recourse from the builder or inspector, but it never hurts to ask. If someone gives me advice, I'm going to follow up on it as much as I can.

Re: drain tile
My next step (summer maybe?) would indeed by putting drainage tile in. I've already thought about doing that so I can get more useable months out of my paintball field. The grass at my place stays green all summer long w/ no irrigation. Pretty much all non-irrigated lawns go dormant in July and August around here, so I imagine I retain water like crazy. The only problem w/ the drainage tile idea is that I really don't much know what I'm doing. I've heard that you can run like a leaf patter w/ the middle as a tight pipe and the others as french drain (perf pipe) and as long as the whole thing slopes toward a ditch, I should be okay. I could do that. Sounds kinda expensive, but I imagine that will become necessary at some point. My land has a nice gentle slope southward, so it wouldn't be rocket science getting the slope right on the pipes. Would something like that be done about 2 feet deep? Would I be able to trench w/ a subsoiler? Is there a website that's a good primer on doing this anywhere?

@ EddieWalker

I really do believe this thread is about as good of homework as I can do.

Re: ground saturation
-This is definitely an issue for me. As I *think* I've mentioned, I plowed and tilled a section of my property last September. That section is still soggy, but much less so than other areas. A farm at my church thinks that subsoiling may help as they bring up dirt from 4-5 feet below the surface. He has a little single cat1 subsoiler that he said I could borrow; that's probably all my 3400HST could handle. I'll try that prior to tilling/plowing this time on another section of land to see if that improves drainage at all. It's the soil. It just holds water like a sponge. I've even thought if it would be worthwhile to drill a bunch of holes w/ an auger and fill 'em w/ sand or 5/8ths crushed just to see if drainage improves. I'd do it on a grid pattern. I'd heard of a farmer who did this and it supposedly did wonders for his field. Of course, I think that was a flooding issue too.

Re: settling issues/footings
-Not sure how deep they are below the crawl. However, as far as I can tell, the house is 2.5 years old and there's no evidence of any settling. Most houses I've seen a little bit, but there's no cracking of any sheetrock. My Father in law is a carpenter (and the realtor that sold us the house and will be helping w/ any solution to these problems free of charge, less coronas and Costco chimichaungas) and he pointed out examples of settling in other houses. There's zero evidence of any settling here. That would lead me to believe that however deep the footings are, it was deep enough. And no, the house doesn't move, at least not so much that I've noticed it.

I'm not sure where the water would come in from the sides, but overall your post has really got me more interested in thoroughly examining the drainage issue w/ an engineer.

I neighbor will hopefully bring by a sump pump this week. I'll try to pump out one of the lakes and see what happens.

I really hope that that if I poured concrete, the water wouldn't settle in on top of it. I would find a way to make sure that wouldn't happen before pouring concrete.

To the best of my knowledge, the water doesn't leave, but drains back into the crawl space dirt. It jus does so very slowly.

I have no doubt that my supersaturated field feeds this problem. Late last year I had 1500 feet of drainage ditch dug across the north side of my property and down the west side to the county ditch. It flows like crazy when it rains, but it's only wet (and empty) right now. Maybe a little trickle here and there, but no flow. It's a couple feet deep for the most part.

re: poles
-I don't have an auger. Given that these are 27-30 foot utility poles that weigh 6-700 lbs (at least) each, I wil not be doing this job myself. I'd probably kill myself or break my tractor *shudder*. I'll assist whoever I hire, but I want those poles done right. They will be sunk 5-6 feet into the ground, just like the phone company does. I assume that's okay, as none of the poles seem to be doing too bad around here right now. I may inquire of the locals to see if they go deeper in my area, but to my understanding it's 3 feet +1 ft per 10 in the air. Given my 22 feet in the air, that should be okay. That's with no cement too, which the phone company also does.

**Thanks for keeping up w/ me and giving me plenty to think about.


@ inveresk

-If you are gonna be near Ferndale, I'd surely appreciate your help measuring the grade differences. I would have no idea how to even begin doing something like that, but it would be really good to know. I'll PM you my info.


@ Paddy #2
-I too am looking for the most permanent, least invasive, and least costly solution, probably in that order. I believe that we will find it.


Anyone ever read "the tipping point" by Malcolm Gladwell? He would describe us as a bunch of "mavens". People who derive much joy from teaching others, sharing information, and being good consumers. I'm reading it right now and highly recommend it. "Blink" is by the same author; another fascinating and quick read.


I'll give updates when I have 'em. Thanks for the thoughts and the effort to type them all out.

 

[Investorguy]

Oh, and as far as investment tips go, I'm heavily focused in Tata Motors ADRs in my personal account. I love that company. ADR is "American Depository Receipt" which is investorspeak for a way to invest in a foreign company via the US stock exchanges. Tata is an Indian auto manufacturer w/ huge market share and they also happen to produce the key inexpensive car that everyone wants to drive. Kind of a cheap status symbol. And you how huge social status is over there. Anyhow, they're making bucks hand over fist right now and a the rate that country is industrializing, I honestly feel like you could buy as much of that stock as you wanted and never even look at it for the next decade. I got in around $17 and it's by far the largest position in my personal account. The symbol is TTM; echeck it out. I also own MINDX, an Indian mutual fund (bullish on India, I guess).

That's about all the info I can really share. Professionally, I actually work mainly w/ folk at or near retirement utilizing a mixed bag of traditional and alternative investments. We don't have a lot confidence in the stock market over the next decade, so we are seeking mostly absolute return oriented strategies. We want to get our 10-15% per year every year regardless of the market's performance. Most of our strategies are more than just stock or fund managers and many are accredited only. I personally can't afford the minimums for most of our managers.

Oh and that stuff I mentioned up there earlier, that is NOT investment advice, which, in order to provide I would need to know about YOU. That's just what I'M doing in MY portfolio. Know your investments before you buy anything.

 

[Highbeam]

"Remember, I still stand by locating a registered PE in civil engineering in your area familiar with your local codes and regulations and soil/climate conditions."

Funny that a few of us actually are licensed engineers. There is more than one solution to this issue and each one has merits in terms of cost, permanence, effectiveness, etc.

The water table goes up and down throughout the year naturally, it can be lowered locally artificially, and it is not the same water table that a drinking well guy wants to use, that one is deeper. There is more than one water table.

Foundations often rest below the water table. Saturated soil has a bearing capacity that is lower than non-saturated soil but it is still buildable on-able. It is possible that the topsoil/clay mix that IG sunk his tractor into is only 5 feet deep and then there is a good solid soil underneath which is why the digout was so deep.

The footer is setting above grade from the photos. There is no real reason to bury a footing but it sure would have helped IG in this case. The excavation for the home was a digout, you live above a hole.

When you talk to the concrete pumper guy, maybe ask him if you can pump straight pea gravel. I can't see why a pump that can pump pea gravel, cement, and water couldn't pump pea and water alone. That would be cheaper and not as permanent. We see concrete trucks loaded with pea all the time here. The concrete slab is not to seal the floor but to raise the grade so why not use a granular material?

 

[bugstruck]

Almost all homes except perhaps for the more arid areas?? have black mold somewhere after a few to several years. Usually on the back side of drywall. If you don't have any and keep an eye out for it in the crawl space, you should be able to catch it early. The best remedy is bleach and water per most recommendations with some recommending only 10% bleach. My experience says 100% straight from the bottle nails it in one application and leaves enough residue to resist future growth for some time TBD. Sure will blonde up the wood. It's fumes are toxic and/or caustic though until it dries. So better to avoid the application in confined areas if at all possible.

What you don't want is dry or wet rot. If you see white instead of black on the wood, you need to get after that immediately. That attacks the structural integrity of the wood. The black mold has little or no impact in that regard based on what I've seen. Not sure topical remidies for rot though. That is a fungus as best I recall. Others may know more.

 

[bugstruck]

Ut oh. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Guess I was viewing your last page 1 post and not page 10 as I thought when I posted last /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. Anyhow, it may be of some value to someone????

 

[Cacinok]

If I may shed a little light on the legal aspect of this situation, not that I'm giving legal advice, mind you. I would never dissuade anybody from giving money to their local attorney. But going after the builder will not be very effective. I won't bore anybody w/ the numerous defenses that I would use on behalf of the builder - if anybody is interested PM me. Also, going after the inspector would fail b/c, iirc, Investorguy stated that the inspector noted the water and they were aware of it when they purchased. As I said, this is not meant to be legal advice as Washington laws are different than in OK.

Good luck w/ this one Investorguy and thanks for sharing your portfolio. I've got some research to do. Your investment kungfu is greater than mine.