Water lines for filling horse buckets

   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #11  
What type of copper cracked? I should have mentioned that I only use Type L, the heavier wall copper compared to the thinner wall Type M. I never touch the flexible stuff, that's pure junk and what I get to fix a lot of the time.


Eddie
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #12  
What type of copper cracked? I should have mentioned that I only use Type L, the heavier wall copper compared to the thinner wall Type M. I never touch the flexible stuff, that's pure junk and what I get to fix a lot of the time.
Eddie
It was most likely the thinner walled copper...but I have seen poorly sweated fittings come apart (without splitting) under frozen conditions...
...as for PVC...I have occasionally (in a pinch) had to use some (Schedule 40) PVC fittings to make up connections to tanks, spigot risers etc...they never make it through even mild winters...they are the first things to bust/crack...

Curious as to the type of issues you run across with black poly pipe?...evidently some must be better than others as The only problems I have ever had are what I described...It (black poly) is the most widely used pipe in these parts for extended runs of water lines...

One thing about the better quality plastic fittings is there will sometimes be places where excess plastic (from the molding process) needs to be trimmed off so the pipe seats well on the barbs...
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #13  
You getting water from a yard hydrant. Unless you allow it to drain after each use, It will freeze.

I suggest a Quick connect at the hydrant. from the QC run your water to the rafters, install a vacuum breaker at the highest point, and then lines to each bucket with a valve. After filling the buckets, disconnect at the hydrant, open the bucket valves. The whole system will then drain dry, drawing air through the vacuum breaker. It will never freeze since the water has been drained out
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #14  
We already use heated buckets in the winter and they work very well. Even last winter when we had several nights with temps near 0.


That is exactly what I was thinking of doing except using PVC or Poly instead of a hose - although using a good garden hose might be easier. In the winter we drag the hose out, fills the buckets and then drain the hose. Using the "inverted U" setup would eliminate a lot of the work.

over rafter watering.png

first diagram = central manifold (bunch of tees and valves with a frost free hydrant), each location has its own pipe ran to it.
--it is assumed, there is a bucket near to the hydrant, and that would be the last one to be filled up in winter. so you can drain the lines after shutting off hydrant.

second diagram. single main pipe ran up in the rafters, and a drop leg to each bucket. with a valve near each bucket.
--the hose between hydrant and first bucket, may be iffy, if it is not hear the hydrant, and need for one more valve to be put into mix. so you can open valve and let water drain out of things once hydrant is shut off.

==================
1/2" inside diameter is more than plenty, you might get away with 3/8" inside diameter hose and/or pipe. but might advise the last couple feet of what ever goes into the bucket, be 3/4" this is more of an attempt to slow down the water, as it comes out. so it is not like a power washer, and spraying water all over the place.

a single handle 1/4 turn valve to fully open, more likely see them labeled as "gas valves" might be easier to deal with, vs the multi turn handle gate valves. the 1/4 turn and open valves may be a couple bucks more. but so much easier to use, more so if you have gloves on.

if ya looking at long runs, pvc pipe or a hard pipe might be better suggested if hanging from rafters and like. the stuff is less likely to "bend" or "sag" creating a low spot, were water would collect and freeze.
==================
big issue you are going to encounter "surging" lots of air in the pipe runs, and this is going to cause some water hammering. "you can fill and hear the pipes bounce around some" while ya filling up the buckets at each location. along with when ya open/close a valve.

a smaller inside diameter pipe, will help with the surging/water hammer effect, but will take a little longer to actually fill a bucket with water.
--pvc pipe with all the fittings will more likely be more prone to breaking / cracking due to the surging / water hammer.
--even black poly pipe you will get surging and water hammering like effect, but the hose may hold up, but the fittings will take the beating, just like pvc pipe.

over rafter watering.png
diy water hammer resister = just a piece of pipe sticking straight up with a end cap on it. this pipe is suppose to have air in it, and it will automatically get air in it. i honestly don't know how long, but if you have a 1 to 2 feet of length you can deal with it. make it 2 feet, it should be more than plenty.

coming up from the main pipe, lets air escape upwards, allowing water to fully go through pipe vs having little air pockets here and there.

to large of inside diameter of a pipe / hose in above diagram can be a bad thing. 3/8" most likely suggested, 1/2" maybe ok, 3/4" ya most likely asking for trouble, 1" ya never clear the air out, by the time ya fill up the buckets at each location.

===============
with anything above, or other, make sure you add extra bracing for the pipes, the plastic pipe hangers vs metal would be suggested, "less sharp corners" and considering amount of water surging / water hammering going on. the plastic might let things give and take some vs cutting into a pipe and puncturing it, or causing apipe to burst.
--were ever there is a fitting, is were the most abuse will happen. so get a pipe hanger around them.
--make sure the pipe hangers are snug on the pipe, (pipe not seating there loose), but also not so tight ya end up cracking pipe due to over tightening the hanger.

===============
above is rough thoughts. give/take from what you will. 100's ways to go about it.
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #15  
Curious as to the type of issues you run across with black poly pipe?...evidently some must be better than others as The only problems I have ever had are what I described...It (black poly) is the most widely used pipe in these parts for extended runs of water lines...

My personal experiences are in dealing with leaks in mobile homes and areas of Tyler where it was installed for the water mains into the house. Both before and after the meter. The city of Tyler has a crew working 24/7 to fix water line leaks because for a period of time, they used it in thousands and thousands of homes. Freezing isn't a problem that I've had with it because it's either in the ground deep enough not to freeze, or it's in a mobile home that is heated. But the problems are breaking from movement in the ground or just being loose in a mobile home. It does not flex very well and it is not strong enough to handle it for very long. It cracks along the sides and the crack can vary from small to massive.

I've also seen this in Schedule 40 over fairly long runs in the hundreds of feet. If it's a really long run, then a gasketed pipe is the only way to go because of all the movement in the soil. This will allow the pipe to slide in and out of itself and not tear apart. I believe PEX will stretch enough to handle the movement of the soil, but my experience with PEX is for short runs of less then a hundred feet in the ground and inside houses.

As for copper fittings, it's either done right or it leaks fairly quickly. You really have to get it clean before sweating it and I also like to use Mapp gas to heat it in the yellow bottles. It's faster then propane and I think that makes a big difference, especially with sweating brass to copper.

Eddie
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #16  
My personal experiences are in dealing with leaks in mobile homes and areas of Tyler where it was installed for the water mains into the house. Both before and after the meter. The city of Tyler has a crew working 24/7 to fix water line leaks because for a period of time, they used it in thousands and thousands of homes. Freezing isn't a problem that I've had with it because it's either in the ground deep enough not to freeze, or it's in a mobile home that is heated. But the problems are breaking from movement in the ground or just being loose in a mobile home. It does not flex very well and it is not strong enough to handle it for very long. It cracks along the sides and the crack can vary from small to massive.

I've also seen this in Schedule 40 over fairly long runs in the hundreds of feet. If it's a really long run, then a gasketed pipe is the only way to go because of all the movement in the soil. This will allow the pipe to slide in and out of itself and not tear apart. I believe PEX will stretch enough to handle the movement of the soil, but my experience with PEX is for short runs of less then a hundred feet in the ground and inside houses.

As for copper fittings, it's either done right or it leaks fairly quickly. You really have to get it clean before sweating it and I also like to use Mapp gas to heat it in the yellow bottles. It's faster then propane and I think that makes a big difference, especially with sweating brass to copper.
Eddie

After reading the above I truly do not think we are talking about the same type of "poly" pipe...what you are describing sounds like possibly "polybutylene"...google the word to read about all the issues and lawsuits over it's use in mobile homes, condos etc.etc...

The black poly pipe we use is very tough I use it from 2" down to 3/4"....you can repeatedly drive over this stuff and it will flatten out but I've never seen any type of crack, split etc...
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #17  
Having lived both in East Texas (near Canton) and now West Texas (west of Abilene) and caring for 4 horses and a mini donk, I have yet to run lines in over 10 years of ownership. I maintain 2 600 gallon troughs, both are equipped with trough heaters when the weather is forecasted to be below zero. I hose fill em to the brim and set my heaters in then pull the hose into the garage. I have yet to run out of water for my small herd, have yet to run lines under asphalt (the wellhouse is on the far side of the drive). I maintain an extra 500 gallon tank in a protected area that won't freeze IF I need to get water to the horses but never have to date. TExas weather is a lot differnt than up north stuff where one can go 3 weeks below zero/freezing.

IF I were to design a system, it would be below the frost level of that area and I'd never use PVC but rather an insulated pipe coming from a warm water source (partial heat system to prevent water freezing enroute). The spigot or exposed area would be wrapped and a heat source available to prevent fast freeze. In texas, we don't face the weeks/months on end of sub freezing temps.
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #18  
For well water we use blue polyB. As I recall polyB can withstand 4-5 freeze thaw cycles no problem.
Rating I seem to recall is like 150PSI or thereabouts. Some black poly also carries that rating.
Also to remember running water will not freeze so if overflow is not a problem leave the faucet opened a crack.
Heated tracing wire can also be a solution for those dicey areas. There are some tracing wires that are self regulating in that only the section that needs heat will get it, a bit more costly but excellent long term solution and no thermostats required. I know of some installations that are surface mounted and supply water even down to -35 deg. Naturally any or the more insulation provided the lower the hydroelectric costs.
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets #19  
I'm not sure what "black poly pipe" is being described in this thread. There's some relatively thin wall black plastic pipe they use on sprinker systems, but there's some of that black poly pipe that comes in a big coil that's pretty stiff stuff. Are we talking about the same pipe or different pipe?
 
   / Water lines for filling horse buckets
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Thanks for the suggestions. I wound up buying 1/2" pex and 1/4 turn valves for each bucket. Total cost was about $120 of which $39 was for the crimping tool. Total cost was cheaper than I thought it would be. It will be easy to drain the pex setup in the winter and much easier than dragging the hose around and draining it when done.
 

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