Welding FAQ

thumbtrap · Jul 6, 2002

Help - I've been looking at welders, and the questions are coming faster than the answers. I've read a number of comparisons of the different methods, but for farm equipment welding - how do the different types shake out?

I'd about decided, that a decent capacity AC buzz box was the most generally useful type welder there is for this stuff. Until I started reading the Richard Finch book, and he seems really big on gas, tig, and mig, and doesn't seem to have much use for arc welding.

I understand that oxy-acetylene has tons of uses in addition to welding, but for sticking thick wall tubing, angle and flat HRS together it seems to me that a buzz box is still the answer. Add into the equation that my brother has a Miller MIG from an autobody project a few years ago. I suspect that a reason for Finch's minization of SMAW may be that he does have access to Oxyfuel, TIG and MIG.

How does oxy-acetylene compare to buzz boxes for operational costs?
Do the cutting and heating capabilities of the torch warrant using oxyacetylene for general purpose farm duty welding in place of a Hobart or Lincon 235 Amp AC unit?

soarkrebel · Jul 6, 2002

I personally have a century 130 amp mig. i like it for building small projects but i would like to have a lincoln ac225. mainly because it is cheaper than a 220 mig unit. i learned to gorilla weld on a lincoln. i also like the miller units because they have a better system of adjusting your amperage. you crank it instead of a click type dial.
For what you have described you want to do i would recommend a lincoln ac225. you can get them at lowes for about $220.00. i have been pricing a oxy/acy unit and the best price i have gotten is about $400.thats bottles and all.
I would rather use a torch for cutting and bending and have a machine for welding. a good chop saw is a great tool to have also. i have a chop saw but have to use a friends tota torche .good luck.

rotr · Jul 7, 2002

I only own an AC 225 and have had it for about 15 yr. Used to have an oxy/acet rig and didn't use it that much except for brazing and light welds. Use it for HRS, CRS, Stainless, etc.

I would say if you want penetration, go with the buzz box. You'll probably get more usage from it. Also, you can cut with an arc welder as well.

thumbtrap · Jul 7, 2002

Thanks guys. That kind of confirms what I'd been thinking. I also figured that the oxy/acy setup might be used more for heating and brazing than welding if you had a buzz box and a mig on hand - didn't know if that changed the requirements of the torch setup any. As far as teaming on tools - the money could probably be much better spent on cutting tools than just one more way of heating metal.

centex · Jul 7, 2002

A buzz box is fine for what you want to do. An AC/DC buzz box is more versatile but costs more. A MIG welder is faster, more convenient, and more expensive than a stick welder but since you are not welding for profit it is not necessary. Finch's background is in building airplanes and race car suspensions so his book's are based on his experience in these applications. If you weld chrome moly tubing, stainless, aluminum, titanium, or sheet metal or weld for profit then you need to look at some of the other processes but for welding angle iron or mild steel plate a buzz box will get the job done for a lot less money than anything else. Gas is good for other things than welding but it is only good for welding thin metal up to 1/8". You can weld thicker metal if your torches will handle large enough tips but there is a lot of heat generated involved and it can get scary. If you do much welding you will want to get a gas welding rig for cutting, brazing, welding thin metal, and heating metal for bending. I would buy a gas welding rig based on it's cutting capacity. The gas cylinders will cost as much or more than the torches.

Ron Fournier wrote a book on metal fabrication that covers welding including stick welding. You might want to check this out.

wroughtn_harv · Jul 7, 2002

I believe probably the best investment past a basic buzz box would be to get an A/C D/C machine.

The logic behind that is your world of opportunity is not just doubled but actually tripled because you can weld more different materials easier and better. Varying the rod and polarity gives you a lot of flexibility.

BTW the only time I use A/C on my machines is when I'm doing tig. I live with D/C reversed, sleep with D/C reversed, and if given the choice, die with it too. The biggest reason for this is I am really comfortable with one particular rod and it only works on D/C and for me, reversed polarity. I have it in 3/32, 1/8, 5/32, and 3/16 just for whatever has to be done.

But probably the best weldor I've ever personally known had an old Miller buzz box. He'd taught welding and he'd been a welding supervisor in some pretty large shops. I like to say he'd forgotten more about welding than me and all those I knew would ever know.

He told me how to use the different rods. He explained a lot to me about technique. But I don't think I'll ever have the ability he had with a simple buzz box and some E6013. That's all he ever used and he performed miracles with it. Well, every now and then he'd show up with some special alloy and a couple of sticks of rod and want to use my big machine just for a minute. But that only happened once every year or so.

He once told me the biggest mistakes weldors make is they try to make it happen in one pass. He explained mulitiple little passes was actually stronger.

I guess maybe the comparison between buying an A/C machine versus a D/C machine from my perspective might be comparing buying a single speed sawsall versus a variable speed sawsall. The single speed will do everything an variable can. It just can't do it as easy.

Along the same line of thought we could compare the different welding processes.

We could say table saw could be like buying a mig. You can do most everything with it but you have a big machine to tote around. And your material being welded has to be manipulated more.

The tig would be like buying a scroll saw. Again you can do it all but it's best just for what it's made for.

Gas rig would be like using a circular saw, again you can do it all. And it's a lot more portable than using a table saw. But it has it's drawbacks.

The single speed sawsall would be like getting a buzz box. You can cut anything the other saws can cut and if you could only have one saw it's the only on that can truly do it all. The A/C D/C machine would be like having a variable speed sawsall.

I hope this helps.

If you feel like I've confused the issue. You're not alone. I've been doing it for years. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

dullpain · Jul 7, 2002

What is that "one particular rod" you use all the time.

Anonymous Poster · Jul 7, 2002

40 + years of welding, and I do own All types, stick, gas, MIG, DC rotary and gasoline driven, and the best advise I can give anybody looking to start out is you NEED both gas and a stick machine.
The thing you NEED most is a good welding supplier who will be there with honest advise. The few lousy bucks you'll save buying a machine from Lowes or Home Depo will be very quickly forgotten when you need parts or help, and believe me you will.
You can start with just a torch, but the cost of welding everything with a torch will quickly eat up the cost of a stick machine. Stick welders have been around since 1920, and they will be made at least to the end of this century cause they are the single most universal welder made.
I started with a small Purox torch, and still have and use it. I quickly learned that every time I NEEDED to make a weld one of the tanks was either empty or went empty just when I needed it most. I scraped together the money to buy my first Lincoln buzz box, a 225 amp machine, and a box of 1/8 6013, and began learning to weld. (note BEGAN, it's a process nobody ever learns everything about)
I got my first DC machine a few years later, a gas drive Lincoln, used, and ran that baby into the ground, engine end not ehe generator. DC is definitely a lot nicer than AC, but isn't totally necessary for the average occasional weldor. Learning to use a Buzz Box can be chalenging, but I could run an overhead inverted pass with my AC machine long before I got the first DC machine.
As to learning to weld, the 2 most important things are learning to look at the deposit, and NOT the pretty fireworks show, and LEARNING when to STOP. If you watch the fireworks, you are going to be very unhappy when you lift the helmet and chip the slag. If you don't learn when to stop, you are going to be spending a lot of time learning to fill holes, because molten metal does fall.
6013 will teach you a lot about welding, and is pretty close to a universal rod for a Buzzbox and steel. 7018 has a little better restrike and initial strike capability, and can weld pretty much by just dragging it along the pass, but will lead you to a false sense of confidence.
Whatever you choose to start with, make absolutely certain you get it from a good welding supplier who will be there to answer your questions and tolerate your learning.

crb478 · Jul 7, 2002

I believe that the AC buzz box will get you by, but if you can swing it you will really appreciate the AC/DC. For the type of welding that you descrided these are the types of welders I would consider because they do a better job with slightly dirty or contaminated metal. Not that you should't clean your metal before welding., but sometimes getting access to a area is limited or you need it in a hurry. If you end up cutting much you will difenately want to get a torch, but you will be able to judge if you need one better than anyone else. For general purpose work these two items can probably do everything you will need.

s1120 · Jul 7, 2002

I already have a small MIG welder. I need one for sheet metal work on my old cars, but I realy want to get a bigger stick, for the heavy stuff. Can one be gotten for around $200? How about used? I learnd on this old huge thing my dad had. It was about the size of a dog house. Had about a dozen places to plug in the wires on the front, and a big crank to adjust the amps. Any problem with looking for a used one? Unfortunly he sold his about 10 years ago. I will also be looking to get a gas setup. I do have his old one, but I think it will be safer to get new.

crb478 · Jul 7, 2002

you can get a AC buzz box for around 200 new. If you get a used one you take the risk of what kind of condition it is in and if its duty cycle has been exceeded during use, this is typically what damages a welder. I have seen some good AC/DC welders in the 200 dollar range, but I knew how they had been used. Ask the right questions and try it out and you could get a bargin. I would look for one a little newer than the one you described. You can get one much smaller that will do more and has a longer duty cycle than those really old ones, not that they will not weld just fine.

wroughtn_harv · Jul 7, 2002

I use Lincoln 5P+. It's the grey rod. 5P is the red rod. They're both E6010 which is the D/C version of E6011.

The reason I like plus is my preferred welding position is vertical up. The plus doesn't cut as hard as 5P nor sixty eleven. I work my puddle almost like a gas weld and with plus it's a clear and easy puddle to work. It's a very predictable puddle to manipulate and you've got a grace period when you compare it to something like seventy eighteen which falls all of a sudden and you always seem to be one step behind if you're watching it as you work it.

The other big benefit with plus is cleaning. It cleans easy with just a brush most of the time. It's not near as difficult to clean as say sixty eleven can be. And it sure as heck is a lot easier than 5P to clean.

The biggest downside of it is the cost though. I can buy E6013 through one of the wrought iron suppliers for about forty to forty five dollars for fifty pounds. Getting a break my 5P+ runs me about sixty to sixty five for the same amount.

It's also real easy on you doing overheads and with transitions like when welding pipe joints. I've found it easy to manipulate the puddle with either pushing or pulling. There are a lot of rods where pushing causes nothing but heartache.

I've got a cousin by marriage about five ways that's a union weldor. I've learned a lot from him. He confirmed what I've heard for years. There are two kinds of stick weldors. Those that live and die with 5P and those that live and die with 5P+. I'm a plus and he's a pee. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

DocHeb · Jul 8, 2002

For a lot of information, check out the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/list.asp>Lincoln Electric Articles</A>. There are many articles for the novice and experienced welders.

Boone · Jul 8, 2002

I'm make an occasional weld, maybe once a week. I have a twenty year old ac 295 amp Wards, and a Lincoln 100 wire feed with the gas conversion. For the flat stock and angle iron I like the stick welder, and on lighter stuff the mig is great.
The Lincoln is nice for hauling around and taking it over to a friends place that only has a 110 outlet, but a larger unit would be noce to have.
Chop saws are great and make building things a lot more fun.

Having a welder is also super because it can change the way you look at the world around you. If you think you would like something but can not afford to buy or it isn't even sold, then go to and make it for yourself.

Now I gotta get to work, I've got an old truck brake drum and some 3 inch pipe waiting to become a portable stand for the chainsaw electric sharpener.

Boone

wroughtn_harv · Jul 8, 2002

Now I gotta get to work, I've got an old truck brake drum and some 3 inch pipe waiting to become

Oh Boy! He's gonna make his own forge!!!!!!!

 a portable stand for the chainsaw electric sharpener.

Well, darn...................

dullpain · Jul 8, 2002

Got a flyer from Lincoln today in mail. The ( MSRP ) price for an AC-225 buzz box is $308. The AC/DC 225/125 is $472. I would think typically you could find either of these about $100 cheaper if you shop around. For the difference in price (if you can afford it) the AC/DC is hands down better.

I bought a USED Lincoln IdealArc 250 amp AC/DC+ & - machine about 8 years ago. This is a heavier duty model than those above with a generous duty cycle. Gave $700 for it and never flinched. It was probably 6-8 yrs. old when I bought it . I believe they typically sold new for around $1200 to $1400. Has been a great welder for me. Of couse it looked AS NEW when I purchased it. The guys shop, home, yard, and vehicles were neat and kept up. I think if buying used checking those things out tell a big story. If I found a good used piece of equipment such as this and the same circumstances I would go for it. That is if you got the time or inclination to shop for that type of stuff. I looked about 6 months before I found a used welder I would have. I don't know if Lincoln still makes the IdealArc or not. Don't see it in the flyer.

DocHeb · Jul 8, 2002

"I bought a USED Lincoln IdealArc 250 amp AC/DC+ & - machine about 8 years ago ... I don't know if Lincoln still makes the IdealArc or not."

The <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=2495>Lincoln IdealArc Welder</A> is still manufactured, albeit slightly higher in price than what you paid.

MDNick · Jul 10, 2002

Since I finally having something to add around here, I thought I'd mention I just ordered a AC/DC 225/125 Lincoln electric job from my local welding supplier. Best deal I could find off the internet was $405, free shipping. This local guy got it for $400+tax. He doesn't have one at this store but does at another one. With the tax difference, I am paying $17 more for it. Well worth it to stay local. I decided to buy the deluxe form of the venerable AC 225 for the reasons everyone said, only another $150 or so, and gives the option of DC. Worth it when amortized over the life of the welder.

I passed up a used model of the same machine. Guy said it was still on the original shipping crate. Yep sure enough. Wood was water stained, box was a bit rusty. Used quite a bit. While I know the guy, I was also concerned about the duty cycle not being properly followed. $200. For another $200 a new machine and a new machines 3 yr warranty.

With respect to helmets, I am looking at a Jackson executive auto darkening helmet. $289 off the web, haven't talked to the local shop about it yet. Anyone know if the Jackson series has a clear glass replaceable cover plate so the spatter isn't boogering up the auto-darkening system plate?

bnixon · Jul 10, 2002

Looking for a welder. I was looking at a Lincoln Pro Mig 135 amp. $459 at Lowes. I was wondering if this would be enough of a machine to weld on implements and things of that nature. I like the mig because I have heard it is easier to learn than a stick welder. Is that correct? would I be better off with a stick welder?

I am new to welding and know absolutely nothing about it. All feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

EdDekker · Jul 12, 2002

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

With respect to helmets, I am looking at a Jackson executive auto darkening helmet. $289 off the web, haven't talked to the local shop about it yet. Anyone know if the Jackson series has a clear glass replaceable cover plate so the spatter isn't boogering up the auto-darkening system plate?

<hr></blockquote>

I have the Jackson Nex-gen hood. It is still new, so far like it a lot.

It uses standard large coverplates for the outside and a special coverplate inside. The inside plate has two corners notched out to provide access to the controls. (The coverplates are plastic not glass.)