Well Head a good Ground?

[Bedlam]

I know this question has the chance to bring allot of feedback, and controversy but Ill try to make it as clear as I can I know there are allot of knowledgeable people on here who can answer it for me . Thanks
First ,this is in concern to a water pump placed in a well pit,Presently there is a number 12 wire feeding it. Only two wires white (neutral) and the black (hot).
There is also an outlet inside the pit .
Obviously this outlet is lacking the bare ground wire.I would like to replace the outlet with a new one, and a GCFI.
Not having the ground wire I was wondering, and think maybe a ground rod at the pump to bond onto?
Then considered the best ground rod is probably the casing there.
some considerations.
1. I don't plan to replace the wire with three or four conduc tor.
2.I will attach a wire to the well casing(metal)

I understand it would be better to make a new wire run but wonder if this way of grounding is better than nothing.

Thanks in advance.
Al

 

[JB4310]

I don't know the specific grounding question, but wonder what you want to use the outlet for, if it's just for the pump then I doubt it should have a gfi.

Certain things should not be on gfi for fear of nuisance tripping, a couple of things I've seen are washing machines and sump pumps on gfis, no big deal with the washing machine but could be a problem with a sump pump or a refrigerator having the circuit shut down.

I would think it should have a ground though, unless the casing acts as a ground?
At least the outlet box should be grounded, not sure if you can do that at the casing or a local rod, would think so but not sure.

JB.

 

[Bedlam]

Thanks for the rapid responce. I should add the outlet is going to be for the heater to keep it from freezing.And its location possible a radio in the summer.
I'm assuming that any ground is better but also wondered if a GCFI would be workable in theory.
I agree with the sump and frig not being on a gcfi..

 

[Tig]

In theory there would be no better ground than a steel casing burried in the ground. The issue is, are two grounds allowed. Two separate grounds on one electrical system can raise issues of having electrical potential between them. This should not happen but if it does it could be dangerous if they are exposed. You can check that with a meter between the two grounds. Check for AC and DC potential.
Pump, bypass the GFCI. Outlet on GFCI. My opinion.
I work with electronics but I'm not an electrician.
Ask an electrician about the code and safety issues.

 

[JB4310]

If your using it as an outdoor convience outlet then it definetly should be a GFCI.

How was it wired in conduit?, any type of direct buried cable would have a ground in it.

 

[Bedlam]

looks like just a underground 'romex' without the ground wire.Fairly standard around here for wells.

 

[CurlyDave]

How deep is the casing?

I my area, they are required to be 75 feet, minimum. That is a very deep ground, and would be a good one.

 

[Mike058]

Ground rods are suppose to be driven a full 8' feet into the ground. The casing is a whole lot deeper than that so I'd drill and tap a hole to get a good bond with the casing. Definitely want GFCI outlet outside where anybody that could touch any equipment plugged into it could be standing on damp surface (dirt, concrete or otherwise).

 

[Bedlam]

Mike i tend to think I agree with your question I know its better than nothing I just wondered what others thought the casing depth is not know right now..lol but im sure its deep enough

 

[Egon]

Well Head a good Ground?

In reply to this statement you will find Lightning considers wells and downhole pumps excellent grounds.

From the electrical code standpoint I have no comment.

 

[DANOCHEESE]

be carfull I would isolate this ground from your hosue ground. The differnce in potentiel will cause issues unless you can BOND the two grounds together.

BONDING the two grounds will require a larger conductor. Typical bond is number 6 copper between grounds.

You want the entire complex on the same ground potential.

 

[Inspector507]

I know this question has the chance to bring allot of feedback, and controversy

Yes this one probably will bring out a lot of opinions and controversy.

But here's what I would tell you if you called me at my office, being a code professional. The NEC does not allow a separate grounding electrode (or system) to be used unless all of them can be bonded together. The purpose of the ground wire in your circuit is to provide a low impedance path back to the source through the ground wire back to the grounded (neutral) conductor where they are bonded together. If you use a separate ground, you will have created an extremely high impedance path.

I should add the outlet is going to be for the heater to keep it from freezing.And its location possible a radio in the summer.

A heater and radio may not even have a grounded cord supplying them. It was quite common at one point for no ground to be connected to a two wire well pump.

Now what would I do in your situation if it was me?

I would install a GFCI without connecting the ground to anything. It is perfectly safe and legal to do so. A GFCI does not need a ground to work. It measures the unbalanced current between the hot and neutral. If they are not the same, then there must be a fault to "ground" and it kicks out.


BTW, the NEC now recognizes a metal well casing as being a grounding electrode that must be bonded back to any other grounding electrodes that are present. They are mainly used to stabilize voltage and dissipate transeint voltage such as lightning.

 

[Bedlam]

Inspector, Thanks,for explaining it. the way I understand is that the GCFI with just the white and black is still preferred even if there is no bare ground wire.This is what I shall do.
I guess I wasn't thinking of the heater having a ground.. I was more thinking that it would be advantageous to somehow use a GCFI I quote you
I would install a GFCI without connecting the ground to anything. It is perfectly safe and legal to do so. A GFCI does not need a ground to work. It measures the unbalanced current between the hot and neutral. If they are not the same, then there must be a fault to "ground" and it kicks out.
Good to know I didn't realize this before.
Most likely noting would happen with the present set up, but I'd rather error on the safest path.
I will use the GCFI without any ground wires to it.

Again thanks all for the info....

 

[JB4310]

That is interesting and helpful info regarding the gfi not needing a ground to function, only problem is all the new gfi's have some smart feature where it wont let you energize the outlet if wired wrong, don't know if that means it would sense the missing component ground?

JB.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Back in the nineties, I had a house with a very very wet basement that I was trying to sell. The inspector wanted a GFCI for the sump pump but as mentioned, the GFCI would trip.

If I recall correctly, I read an article on hospital rated GFCI's being better for wet areas. My local supplier thought I was nuts to spend twenty five bucks for one but it actually worked.

Someone more knowledgable please feel free to chime in.

 

[Bedlam]

Yes now my curiosity has peaked on just how and where the GCFIs are to be used.I have a sump now on a GCFI I assumed it was the right thing to do. they wires are all head high, I don't anticipate any troubles but is it how the code would have it now adays?
(Is a GCFI required for a sump?)

 

[JB4310]

Not sure, but probably not, since it would be undesirable to have it trip unnecessarily. Ideally you would have your sump pump on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, not because there's any great demand but to protect the circuit from being tripped off by something else on it.

When I had my kitchen redone, to meet code there's about 8 circuits in there now, one separate for every appliance plus counter outlets. only the counter outlets are gfi protected. The microwave, refrig, dishwasher and disposal are all on separate 20 amp circuits but not gfi.

I have GFIs everywhere they're supposed to be (I think) baths, porches, garage, outdoors, in the basement (half finished) every outlet is gfi protected except washing machine, not sure if that's code cause I did it myself but I think that's what I must of been told.

I have a sump pump in the basement of my little shop that is not on a gfi. not sure about code cause I did that one myself also.

JB.

 

[Inspector507]

That is interesting and helpful info regarding the gfi not needing a ground to function, only problem is all the new gfi's have some smart feature where it wont let you energize the outlet if wired wrong, don't know if that means it would sense the missing component ground?

JB.

That's correct, they do. But I do believe it senses reversed polarity not the ground. I could be wrong though.

Yes now my curiosity has peaked on just how and where the GCFIs are to be used.I have a sump now on a GCFI I assumed it was the right thing to do. they wires are all head high, I don't anticipate any troubles but is it how the code would have it now adays?
(Is a GCFI required for a sump?)

Yes the 2008 edition of the NEC now requires all receptacles in the basement to be GFCI protected. Including sump pumps.

 

[QRTRHRS]

BTW, the NEC now recognizes a metal well casing as being a grounding electrode that must be bonded back to any other grounding electrodes that are present. They are mainly used to stabilize voltage and dissipate transeint voltage such as lightning.

Back around 1982, I was working with a company putting up wind mills. We inherited the service on one when the original installer went out of business. The hill top site was subject to some serious lightning.

We got a call to come and check out what was left of the inverter, etc. after a strike. Seems the tower was grounded to the well casing which ended in bedrock while the well hole went deeper. During a drought, the water level dropped below the well casing.

I do not recall if the well was bonded to the main or not but man those big capacitors were smoked!