Well Water System Design

   / Well Water System Design #21  
Turnkey,

The pressure relief valve at the tank can be set just higher than the set pressure on the well pump. It just keeps the pump from dead heading or can relieve some pressure from the water heater if needed. The pressure relief at the water heater is beyond the cold water shutoff and is commonly set at 150 PSI. It's only job is to protect the water heater.

The multiple check valves, on the well pump discharge that comes up the casing, keeps any voids from happening. Water can only be "sucked" about 32'. If you use the well pump to pressurize the system and all faucets are turned off with no pressure at the faucets, the water can trickle back down the pipe past the foot valve and leave an open section of pipe with just a vacuum in it and no water. When the pump comes on it can slam a head of water against a closed valve. If there are multiple check valves there is no section longer, vertically, than 25 feet. So no voids. At that very low pressure, the diaphragm tank is closed and it may not be near the void, so it can't help with the hammer.






Some well guys want partially open ball valves on the riser too. I can't see doing that as I don't want a restriction on that pipe.

<snip>

??? You (and the OP) has a submerged pump, therefore there is no "suction" involved. Even with the old shallow well pumps the practical "lift" (suction) is about 26' max and that is at sea level, it decreases rapidly as altitude increases. The 32' is the theoretcal with no system loses.

Your 25" sections accomplish nothing as all it takes is one leaking area to have a vacuum in the system and lose any "suck" you need (none in the case of a submerged. All I can see you doing with those check valves is adding complication and things that can malfunction. All any well needs is one check valve at the bottom, a lot of people will put on at the top (near the tank) if the pump one begins to leak. There is some consideration for the "hammer" caused when the pump starts that long column of water moving but it is well cushioned by the air bubble in the pressure tank.

Partialy open ball valve on the riser? Another thing I never heard of and another thing that can malfuntion.

I wonder what the restriction is on your riser going through all those checkvalves.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #22  
:)If the OP has a submersible pump he'll not hear it. Unless he puts his ear to the tank.:D

Sounds like the OP was building on a slab. If so, with downhole pump, putting a large tank like jinman's in takes little space.:thumbsup: Don't need no well house or check valve above ground.:D

Simple layout and installation. Find lots like it in colder areas. Makes well work much easier.:D

Oh yes he can hear it. My submersible is about 100 ft from the house, pressure tank in the basement, well to house is black poly, enters house with short length of galv tranistions to copper. Definite hum when pump kicks in but not obtrusive and that has alerted me to leaks in the past. Dunno if having the tank no in hte house would change anything.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design
  • Thread Starter
#23  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?

What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?
 
   / Well Water System Design #24  
The one inch line would be fine.

The brass pitiless adapter is just that. It will be made of brass for corrosion reasons.

The pitiless adapter can be set at any depth you wish. Keep it below the frost line. In fact insist on it!

In cold country it's common to have them set at nine or ten feet.:thumbsup:
( it's easier to dig two feet than it is to dig down four feet to place the adapter )

Google pitiless adapter and water well completions. Lots of hits. Lots of pictures.

When living on an acreage we had a submersible pumping through a one in. Plastic line into an 85 gal. Tank. With my ear on the tank I could just barely hear a gurgle of water.:D
 
   / Well Water System Design #25  
Some well "installers" may not properly size the pump / motor arrangement and will install a ball valve they can throttle to prevent drawing too many amps on the pump motor.
 
   / Well Water System Design #26  
??? You (and the OP) has a submerged pump, therefore there is no "suction" involved. Even with the old shallow well pumps the practical "lift" (suction) is about 26' max and that is at sea level, it decreases rapidly as altitude increases. The 32' is the theoretcal with no system loses.

Your 25" sections accomplish nothing as all it takes is one leaking area to have a vacuum in the system and lose any "suck" you need (none in the case of a submerged. All I can see you doing with those check valves is adding complication and things that can malfunction. All any well needs is one check valve at the bottom, a lot of people will put on at the top (near the tank) if the pump one begins to leak. There is some consideration for the "hammer" caused when the pump starts that long column of water moving but it is well cushioned by the air bubble in the pressure tank.

Partialy open ball valve on the riser? Another thing I never heard of and another thing that can malfuntion.

I wonder what the restriction is on your riser going through all those checkvalves.

Harry K


You missed my point completely. Re read my part about suction.

When the well pump is off and all valves are closed up on top and the foot valve leaks, there indeed is suction. Or a vacuum up at the surface (this assuming the well pump is connected directly into the house plumbing) and can lead to an empty section of pipe high up in the well piping. In my case it didn't matter so much because the well discharge line goes into the open holding tank. This leads to a hammer if the pump comes on. This is why the check valves are recommended in deep wells, but it's not my recommendation for every system. I didn't invent this solution I only reported what was recommended by several well installers. And I did it on mine. My pump just fills my tank and then sits for days or weeks before coming on again. This is different than running every time a faucet is opened. Sometimes people are gone for weeks and their systems have time to leak back.

I didn't recommend a partially closed valve either. Please re-read my post. And by all means, set yours up the way that suits you. I only answered some questions and explained why I did what I did.

There are a lot of old fashioned and ill suited ways to deal with the numerous well design considerations. Sometimes I wonder if saving money is more important than doing a good job and sometimes I wonder if folks understand water dynamics. The partially closed valve theory makes me scratch my head too, as does the 1/4" line to hang the pump on. But through it all, wells seem to work pretty well. There are a lot of ways to do things.

I have actually designed and installed a complete system and used it for years. I built it to meet my needs. Those needs were low power usage at the well pump so it could run off my generator, the best reliability I could get, reserve water if the well pump failed and the best chance of retrieving the pump after years of hanging in the well.

As I mentioned, I dropped my pump and had to retrieve it. Those that recommend the cheap 1/4" poly or nylon line a are asking for trouble if they have to pull up 300 feet of pipe, a pump and a tangled mess of wire.

As far as poly pipe being suitable for domestic water use, it's been used in thousands of homes in the Bay Area for at least forty years with no ill affects. Before I used it I got the domestic water approval from the manufacturer and then went with the heavy wall, 200 PSI stuff. I like the idea of sliding it through a sleeve in concrete and being able to replace it if needed. Domestic PEX is another good solution. Simply look for the NSF-61 rating which means it has been tested and shown to not leach chemicals into the water.

By the way, the restriction in the check valves is about 2' of head each and I do understand what suction means.
 
   / Well Water System Design #27  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?


What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?

Dunno what part of the country you were in but ifyou get any frosty temps for very long in winter 2' sounds a bit shallow. Your local building dept can give you the official "frost" depth for your location. Insist that the pitless adapter and all pipes be layed below that depth.


1" is plenty for residential use (including lawn/garden irrigation) if the 'run' from the well is a reasonable distance. I'd consider uping to 1 1/2 if over about 500 ft.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #28  
You missed my point completely. Re read my part about suction.

When the well pump is off and all valves are closed up on top and the foot valve leaks, there indeed is suction. Or a vacuum up at the surface (this assuming the well pump is connected directly into the house plumbing) and can lead to an empty section of pipe high up in the well piping. In my case it didn't matter so much because the well discharge line goes into the open holding tank. This leads to a hammer if the pump comes on. This is why the check valves are recommended in deep wells, but it's not my recommendation for every system. I didn't invent this solution I only reported what was recommended by several well installers. And I did it on mine. My pump just fills my tank and then sits for days or weeks before coming on again. This is different than running every time a faucet is opened. Sometimes people are gone for weeks and their systems have time to leak back.

I didn't recommend a partially closed valve either. Please re-read my post. And by all means, set yours up the way that suits you. I only answered some questions and explained why I did what I did.

There are a lot of old fashioned and ill suited ways to deal with the numerous well design considerations. Sometimes I wonder if saving money is more important than doing a good job and sometimes I wonder if folks understand water dynamics. The partially closed valve theory makes me scratch my head too, as does the 1/4" line to hang the pump on. But through it all, wells seem to work pretty well. There are a lot of ways to do things.

I have actually designed and installed a complete system and used it for years. I built it to meet my needs. Those needs were low power usage at the well pump so it could run off my generator, the best reliability I could get, reserve water if the well pump failed and the best chance of retrieving the pump after years of hanging in the well.

As I mentioned, I dropped my pump and had to retrieve it. Those that recommend the cheap 1/4" poly or nylon line a are asking for trouble if they have to pull up 300 feet of pipe, a pump and a tangled mess of wire.

As far as poly pipe being suitable for domestic water use, it's been used in thousands of homes in the Bay Area for at least forty years with no ill affects. Before I used it I got the domestic water approval from the manufacturer and then went with the heavy wall, 200 PSI stuff. I like the idea of sliding it through a sleeve in concrete and being able to replace it if needed. Domestic PEX is another good solution. Simply look for the NSF-61 rating which means it has been tested and shown to not leach chemicals into the water.

By the way, the restriction in the check valves is about 2' of head each and I do understand what suction means.

There appears to be a misunderstanding somewhere. Your pump is buried in water - there can be no vacuum around it and thus no "suction" problem. Any vacuum/air in the pipe ABOVE the pump does not affect it at all, other than to add a bit more "cushion" for that hammer you are concerned with. In fact the entire pipe from the static level in the well to the tank and the tank itself can be totally empty and not affecdt operation, just as it didn't when you first turned on your system.

I, and others, do not see any purpose at all for all those checkvalves.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #29  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?

What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?



I see you didn't get a good answer to the "pitless adapter" question. It is a two-part brass plate with angled faces, one part goes throught the casing and attaches to the supply pipe to the house, the other goes on the end of the drop pipe, PUmp, wire,pipe is assembled and slid down well with the angled part of the pitless adapter sliding (hopefullyi with no problem) onto the other part. To remove pump, juist pull up on the drop pipe and it all comes off the pitless adapter.

Google "pitless adapter" for some pictures. Hard to spot but most of them are a "dovetail" sliding fit.

Harry K
 

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