What to do w/ 14ac of land?

[DAY]

If shooting a deer or two each year provides you with recreation and venison, all well and good. BUT having deer "living" on you property also does a great deal of damage to trees and shrubs and any garden you plan on having.

 

[clemsonfor]

Clemsonfor,

I am not here to argue with you in any way.

I have a logger with a masters in foresty and my local Dept of Forestry guy advising me and what I posted is verbatim my plan for my Virginia land. I have RICH soil with plenty of water and water retention.

My land was neglected for a good 15 to 20 years by people who did not follow forestry practice and let me tell you that at approx 350 to 400 Loblolly pines per acre they were cramped and their growth was VERY limited.

My goal is to harvest saw timber, not pulp wood, because it pays MUCH BETTER. On my land 680 TPA more than 50% would die and most would be small thin trees (pulp wood).

I only know about my land, and my trees. You may know FAR MORE, and maybe with different species of trees I can do more like what you advise. I was only repeating the advice I recieved from forestry professionals to a guy in a very similar environment.

Maybe I am not recalling things exactly, maybe I've been given bad advice, I'm not claiming to be a forestry expert. But it was not my intention to put out bad information.

Please have a great day.
Be well,
David

I too am not trying to argue with you either. The only reference to this that you mention is a paper called "grow (or Plant) em Wide" if i remember corectly the title from when i was in school. It advised a 10x10 spacing on the thought that you have longer to crown closure allowing more branches fro each tree allowing healthier faster growing trees. This will limit initial harvest volumes and as long as you have growing stock that is good and the trees self prune corectly you will have decent quality saw logs. Cant remember what it proved i just cant see how it was any better than 8x8 unless land is very poor. I may just look it up again. This is the reason they tell you to thin early and often to mazimise what you can as well as keep the competition down between crop species.

And for as what species i may know more about, there are not really any out there i know more about that Loblolly and Longleaf pine. Thats really all we grow in SC esp when your talking quality. NOw in the bottoms on rivers and things you can get some quality cherrybark oaks and things like that that reach veneer quality, but not in what i handle.

And if you havent read anything from me before and heard me mention it, i too have a Masters in Forestry. And i am actually a forester and not a "logger". And right now i would haver to argue with you that saw timber "pays better". Prices are down to almost 50% of what they were 5 years or so ago, yet pulpwood is still strong. As a matter of fact i sold some pulpwood inthe midlands of SC for $16/ton on the stump bout 2 years ago, more than half of what Ply logs brought if i remember right on the same sale. Yes it was extrordinarily wet so it helped, but at that point i advised anyone with pulp to clearcut and start over. Doing anything else just did not make anysense on paper considering you would need to wait till about year 35 to get what i would call medium quality ply logs that the mills dont even like that much. The think right now on solid wood products is that untill the market esp housing pics up for a few years you wont see and increase in the price of solid wood product size trees on the stump.

 

[Pilot]

Another MS in forestry here, but my experience is all in Montana and Oregon with the US Forest Service. Retired in 1994. Although I was a certified silviculturist, all considerations are local, which is why I would defer to Clemsonfor or someone in in your area.

Here are a couple thoughts to consider.

First, is the market in your area. Might be different from what other posters have. 15-20 years ago around here you could find a local mill to take any size sawlog you had and we had a local pulp mill and a veneer mill. Now all the large log mills have closed or converted and anything over about 22" has to be hauled 110 miles. Veneer mill is gone. The local pulp mill just closed a couple months back so now the haul is 60 miles or so. In addition to your local market remember that markets change and you might grow something that doesn't have a good market in 30 years--so make sure there is flexibility in what you grow.

My rule of thumb out here was after crowns close, manage for a density that gives 40-60% crown ratios. That means that at least 40% of the height of the tree should be in full, green healthy foliage. If you are over 60%, you are wasting space. It's a simple and valid system. And if crown ratios are down below 30% and the trees are very uniform, it will take a long time for the trees to respond to thinning and you have a big chance of blowdown or snow damage for the first 3-5 years after thinning. Some species won't respond at all to thinning with less than a 30% ratio.

Ground vegetation doesn't tell you much unless you know what's in the overstory. Shade intolerant trees (trees that need lots of sun) don't throw much shade and ground vegetation may be abundant. OTOH, tolerant trees will have dense crowns that will shade out everything. And even within a single species there are differences depending on site quality. I can show you a place with lots of understory vegetation, so much you have to fight your way thru it. A couple hundred feet away, almost nothing on the ground and the overstory trees were planted at the same time on the same spacing. Both areas were similar, with the same history except for one thing: Alders. Alders fix nitrogen, Doug-firs love nitrogen and where alder had been interplanted, the firs were twice as large with full, dense, wide crowns.

Lastly, unless your ground is pretty free of planting obstructions, such as boulders and stumps, a uniform spacing will be tough to get. That means an 8 ft. spacing which in theory would give you 680 TPA may only give you 400, which is what we typically got from 8 ft. It's pretty hard to maintain a given spacing with 3-5 ft. stumps and associated root systems. And even if you do get a uniform spacing, what will you do with the thinning? Cut every second tree? Every third tree? What if 2 really good trees are side by side, and a lousy one fits your intended spacing? I've never had the luck of working with trees on a uniform spacing, but trying to work out a thinning strategy on a grid on paper gives me few satisfactory spacing strategies.

I just manage the crowns and tree quality. Short crown or bad form, cut it. Large crowns, defect free, wait until next thinning. Spacing? I don't care, there's no magic number good for all sites, I only care about what the trees are doing.

 

[two_bit_score]

One more thing. Dig a pond to go fishing while you watch it all grow.

Great idea! :thumbsup:

 

[Smallplot]

thanks for all of the ideas thus far...what about growing Hay? what are the pros and cons to that...how would i get started?

you would need the ground planted with alfalfa or alfalfa clover mix. Usually 3 cuttings a year with the last cutting as prime.

Would need a tractor, mower conditioner or disk mower, hay rake, a baler either round or square, and means to move the bales from the field. With no barn to store square bales I would suggest round bales.

Pro's: keeps the land looking good. Crop should last 5 to 7 years if properly maintained. Usually easy to sell bales of hay. Can get all of the available equipment used for minimum cost.

Con's: Making sure cutting is done at the proper growth stages. it will be necessary to have a tractor with around 60 HP and up to run the PTO driven hay implements (60 may not be enough). finding storage space for square or round bales. Alfalfa can be tough to get started and once established, if it thins out, you can not re seed alfalfa for new growth.

 

[clemsonfor]

Another MS in forestry here, but my experience is all in Montana and Oregon with the US Forest Service. Retired in 1994. Although I was a certified silviculturist, all considerations are local, which is why I would defer to Clemsonfor or someone in in your area.

Here are a couple thoughts to consider.

First, is the market in your area. Might be different from what other posters have. 15-20 years ago around here you could find a local mill to take any size sawlog you had and we had a local pulp mill and a veneer mill. Now all the large log mills have closed or converted and anything over about 22" has to be hauled 110 miles. Veneer mill is gone. The local pulp mill just closed a couple months back so now the haul is 60 miles or so. In addition to your local market remember that markets change and you might grow something that doesn't have a good market in 30 years--so make sure there is flexibility in what you grow.

My rule of thumb out here was after crowns close, manage for a density that gives 40-60% crown ratios. That means that at least 40% of the height of the tree should be in full, green healthy foliage. If you are over 60%, you are wasting space. It's a simple and valid system. And if crown ratios are down below 30% and the trees are very uniform, it will take a long time for the trees to respond to thinning and you have a big chance of blowdown or snow damage for the first 3-5 years after thinning. Some species won't respond at all to thinning with less than a 30% ratio.

Ground vegetation doesn't tell you much unless you know what's in the overstory. Shade intolerant trees (trees that need lots of sun) don't throw much shade and ground vegetation may be abundant. OTOH, tolerant trees will have dense crowns that will shade out everything. And even within a single species there are differences depending on site quality. I can show you a place with lots of understory vegetation, so much you have to fight your way thru it. A couple hundred feet away, almost nothing on the ground and the overstory trees were planted at the same time on the same spacing. Both areas were similar, with the same history except for one thing: Alders. Alders fix nitrogen, Doug-firs love nitrogen and where alder had been interplanted, the firs were twice as large with full, dense, wide crowns.

Lastly, unless your ground is pretty free of planting obstructions, such as boulders and stumps, a uniform spacing will be tough to get. That means an 8 ft. spacing which in theory would give you 680 TPA may only give you 400, which is what we typically got from 8 ft. It's pretty hard to maintain a given spacing with 3-5 ft. stumps and associated root systems. And even if you do get a uniform spacing, what will you do with the thinning? Cut every second tree? Every third tree? What if 2 really good trees are side by side, and a lousy one fits your intended spacing? I've never had the luck of working with trees on a uniform spacing, but trying to work out a thinning strategy on a grid on paper gives me few satisfactory spacing strategies.

I just manage the crowns and tree quality. Short crown or bad form, cut it. Large crowns, defect free, wait until next thinning. Spacing? I don't care, there's no magic number good for all sites, I only care about what the trees are doing.

He Pm'ed me and its kind of scary all the things you hit on i breifly did. I am ADD and not as eloquent of a typer because of it. My mind runs way faster than my typing ability can so i have errors. And i am a horrible person with run-on sentances. Typing i can be a bit scatter brained which is why my posts look so bad. I graduated #2 in my forestry class but i have to admit reading some of my stuff on here you would wonder if i got out of high school! HAHA.

 

[9973720wb19]

you would need the ground planted with alfalfa or alfalfa clover mix. Usually 3 cuttings a year with the last cutting as prime.

Would need a tractor, mower conditioner or disk mower, hay rake, a baler either round or square, and means to move the bales from the field. With no barn to store square bales I would suggest round bales.

Pro's: keeps the land looking good. Crop should last 5 to 7 years if properly maintained. Usually easy to sell bales of hay. Can get all of the available equipment used for minimum cost.

Con's: Making sure cutting is done at the proper growth stages. it will be necessary to have a tractor with around 60 HP and up to run the PTO driven hay implements (60 may not be enough). finding storage space for square or round bales. Alfalfa can be tough to get started and once established, if it thins out, you can not re seed alfalfa for new growth.

thanks - have a newer model JD 4720 CUT cab with 66hp, would that work? factoring in the hills to... Also, what's the price range for new: disk mower, rake, and round baler? btw, the barn is very large and there is plenty of space to store hay. it's just very old and been rehabbed many of times, and a small area of the tin roof blew off. it would not work for live stock but would (i think) would be fine for some wrapped hey bails.

 

[Smallplot]

It should. 66 hp would work fine for a disc mower. Would need to do some checking on using it to run the baler of your choice. I found a site that has some additional info on the different types of equipment and some recommended requirements for them. You can find it here at
Hay Making Equipment

If you have never put in a crop such as this. I might suggest if there is a farmer in the area you trust to talk to him about it. They would know what type of market there is in your area. This may make a difference between planting straight alfalfa or a mixture like alfalfa and clover. In our area, Grass Hay sells pretty good to farmers just needing something for their cows to chew on during the winter. Where as Horse owners usually prefer small square bales of 2nd or 3rd cutting alfalfa.

Alfalfa likes well drained soil which sounds like it would work for your situation but I admit I know nothing about your soil type and how alfalfa would do on it. Alfalfa seed if pricey and expect to pay around $100 per acre just for seed, even more for the round up ready varieties (but it is so much easier). As I also said earlier, you can expect your crop to last 5 to 7 years if maintained well. If you decide to go this route, make sure you get a soil test and apply the required amounts of Lime and fertilizer. Also be prepared to fertilize every year and soil test every 2 to 3 years just to track lime.


As far as prices, I would suggest going to a site such as tractor house. They have prices on lots of used and quite a bit of new models. just use their search function and choose hay equipment and balers, rakes, mower conditioners, and such.

 

[plowindeeper]

If it was my 14acs with only 10 being usable I would probably keep buskhoging it 3 times a year with the 4720 and a 8ft pull type bushog it wouldn't be that much time allocated-dig pond and fish

If i was wanting to piddle Id bale what was there bushog it-let dry-rake-bale
sell for eroison hay(cheap used rake and a old square baler less than $2000bucks invested) I sell a concrete co. $3000 worth of hay like this a year. $3.00 a bale delivered to witchever plant needs it. You will not get rich but will buy your fuel and dinner.
THIS IS NOT FEED HAY

If I had a pile of money I wanted to get rid of I'd go buy alot of new hay equipmet cut it all up a sow new grass get a soil sample put down lots of ferlize-lime,ect,and and hope someone would want to buy my hay

With only 10 acs (useable) option 3 seems like a big waste of money IMO

I would start out going to the NRCS in you area to see what programs or cost shares are avaible in your area them go from there

 

[clemsonfor]

If it was my 14acs with only 10 being usable I would probably keep buskhoging it 3 times a year with the 4720 and a 8ft pull type bushog it wouldn't be that much time allocated-dig pond and fish

If i was wanting to piddle Id bale what was there bushog it-let dry-rake-bale
sell for eroison hay(cheap used rake and a old square baler less than $2000bucks invested) I sell a concrete co. $3000 worth of hay like this a year. $3.00 a bale delivered to witchever plant needs it. You will not get rich but will buy your fuel and dinner.
THIS IS NOT FEED HAY

If I had a pile of money I wanted to get rid of I'd go buy alot of new hay equipmet cut it all up a sow new grass get a soil sample put down lots of ferlize-lime,ect,and and hope someone would want to buy my hay

With only 10 acs (useable) option 3 seems like a big waste of money IMO

I would start out going to the NRCS in you area to see what programs or cost shares are avaible in your area them go from there

Guys around here just cut and bail fields for cow hay. Its usually not even fescue, weeds and so forth. Cut it and sell for $20/round bale. many of these fields are just whats there after either years of cows or what is there after farming went years ago is my guess. You could cut what you got assuming its not all trees or something.