When is it time to tear down?

[Sysop]

What would be a good indicator of when it is time to take down an old barn?

Short version of a long story:
I have a farm that's been in the family for many generations and the goal has always been "preserve". The barn has been standing since before the civil war (LOTS of history relating to the land) and is in remarkable condition for it's age. It still is all original, everything from the roofing panels to 90% of the siding boards.

Problem is, it's been neglected for the past 10 to 15 years and needs a lot of work to get it back to it's original condition.

There are a couple sections where the weight of the logs are starting to sag in their spans which is allowing the roof to come down against the siding boards and is causing them to bend and break. I'm considering cutting new siding lumber for it, wedging between the logs in their spans so they support each other more, and resupporting the roof. I'm sure it would last many more years once repairs are made, it's a very solid structure. Most everything was hand-done mortise and tenon with 2" wooden dowels through the joints.

Generally, what are the reasons these old barns are dismantled? Is it time to do so? Or should I proceed with repairs?

Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks!

 

[teejk]

All comes down to $$$ but seems to me that if your vertical framing posts are in good shape where they emerge from the ground, I'd try to save it. It they are rotting, then a different opinion. A professional house mover will have all the equipment and knowledge to be able to get some proper structural supports in place to get rid of the major defects. I'd start there.

Neither option will be cheap. A replacement will be less work to finish out but I personally shed tears when a relic comes down. But that's just me.

 

[hawkeye08]

Save it if you can. Some states have programs to pay some of the cost of restoration to keep old barns (part of our history) from being torn down. We had family members get a piece of the old family farm with the 100+ year old barn and house and promises to restore. They have done nothing to the barn and it is getting worse each year. The house is rented out and neglected and will probably be condemned at some point.. we wanted the piece with the barn and house, but knew we could not afford to restore or even take care of them properly so we passed on it, very sad to see them decline.

The program here is Barn Preservation | Washington State Department of Archaeology & Historic Preservation (DAHP), perhaps there is one in your state?

 

[dave1949]

I have no experience in this, but the thought occurred that the sagging beams may be a symptom, not the root cause. Or, they may have been weakened by something, insects, rot, etc.

It might help to do a detailed survey of the barn structure, looking for level and plumb (or not), using a laser level. If the timber frame structure has forces building up in it from a subsiding foundation, leaning, etc., you would want to deal with those things before the siding.

Maybe the results of such a survey, just look, no action, would help you decide on a course of action. You might also look for a historical barn society in your region. They are dedicated to saving old barns and probably have members that would give you an on-site opinion.

 

[rekees4300]

A barn that old deserves respect. I'd try to repair it. The sooner the better. Water is the enemy, when the roof goes everything else follows quickly.

 

[Sysop]

I do really want to save it, but I know there is a point with these old barns when you're best off to tear them down and reclaim the lumber for other uses. We do plan on doing a very complete examination of the underlying structure before starting and also as we go. As for the foundation, it's just resting on some stones and all of the main ones are solid. There is one small section on the end that has had some sinking of a single rock and post. I planned on using some rigging and jacks to lift it off the rock and lift the rock out to dig out some, then refill the hole with some concrete to support the rock, put the rock back in place, and set it back on the rock at the proper height.

 

[teejk]

I have no experience in this, but the thought occurred that the sagging beams may be a symptom, not the root cause. Or, they may have been weakened by something, insects, rot, etc.

It might help to do a detailed survey of the barn structure, looking for level and plumb (or not), using a laser level. If the timber frame structure has forces building up in it from a subsiding foundation, leaning, etc., you would want to deal with those things before the siding.

Maybe the results of such a survey, just look, no action, would help you decide on a course of action. You might also look for a historical barn society in your region. They are dedicated to saving old barns and probably have members that would give you an on-site opinion.

On old barns...pretty much a given that nothing will be square/plumb/level but that is true for most structures after they have had time to settle. The breaking structural beams are a sign of a bigger problem but the way they were built might just be one structural failure that led to another that led to another that led to another. I'll repeat my advice about getting a professional house mover (e.g. they might be able to sneak some engineered trusses where they are needed and will have all the jacks to get it done). A pro should be able to tell you whether you should bother.

 

[Sysop]

There are no beams breaking. There are "stacks" of logs that make up the structure of the main walls and due to how there are spaces between them and how long the spans are, they have started to bow and the unsupported centers of the top-most logs (smallest being on top) are beginning to allow the roof to come down against the siding boards. It is the top edges of the siding boards that are beginning to break from the pressure of the roof, they provide no structural support.

 

[teejk]

Ok then...sounds like your logs are getting old and allowing the "bow-out". What are the dimensions? And how high would you have to go to take the load off of the log walls? If it were me I would consider reframing the inside load bearing walls to support the roof and tie in the existing walls with hurricane anchors or strapping (i.e. the load will be off the logs and they will be decoration only). But as somebody posted above, check your historical preservation resources first to make sure you don't screw yourself out of some type of subsidy. I know...it doesn't seem right to have others share the cost but the money might be there and if you don't ask for it, somebody else will. That's the world we live in (consider it a rebate for all the taxes you have paid to help others with similar projects). I would think about a proper footing around the load bearing perimeter of the building and then "ladder frame" up from there to get the roof load on the new walls. As noted above, a qualified house mover might be your best resource (and no, I'm not a house mover but I've helped move one or two in my time).

 

[Sysop]

Dimensions of the logs? or the barn? The main walls of the barn are 14' high. Most of the structure sets on good solid bedrock and they used other large stones to level things up. There is only one post out of many that has sunk and it's not part of the main structure. An "old timer" I spoke with had looked at it and said that it is normal aging for such a structure and is the one that advised wedging between the logs to provide more support for the thinner top logs that are sagging, and then driving the wedges that level the roof in some to bring it back up and square to where it should be.

I honestly don't think any framework that could be placed in the structure could do a better job holding the roof than the current structure has done during the past 150 years. I would need to see some examples of such things in practice because it is difficult for me to visualize how it would work in my situation. The logs are covered on the outside with rough lumber and quite a bit of the inside as well to make it a working barn. They wouldn't provide much decoration, if they're not there as part of the structure, there is no need to worry about trying to repair it.

Supports such as this are difficult to beat and all this supports is the hayloft.

 

[teejk]

Got it...your further explanations help a lot. The advice to use wedges (shims) makes sense to me. I'd say to try it but move carefully and slowly. You want to fix the problem in a vertical line. Very much like hanging a door, 2 people are better than one (one inside, one outside...you tap, your partner taps, on and on). Once your wedges are in place, then figure out what kind of material you can use to provide permanent support for the suspect logs. In log homes they call it chinking. A google will return a ton of results.

 

[KretZ]

You should post some pictures of the whole barn. As in pictures of the outside of the barn. I think everyone would be interested to see it. I love old barns.

 

[EddieWalker]

If you where to build a brand new barn in it's place, how big would you go and what would it cost to have it done? Figuring out the dollar amount that will get you to this point is what you need to know before you decide anything.

Many old buildings are pure money pits. If it's something you are emotionally attached to, then the money wont matter, but if it's a dollar and time thing, then your step is to do a detailed inspection of everything that is wrong with it and what it will cost to fix it. If you are doing the work yourself, be sure to factor in how many hours each repair will take. If you are going to spend 100 hours total to fix it, that's one thing, but if it comes out to thousands of hours, that has to be a big part of your decision on what to do with the building.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[teejk]

We all have money pits (funny movie btw, especially that plaster scene). From what I can glean, it doesn't seem to involve much money or time to try to fix it (shims on a few logs maybe $20???). If it doesn't work, then go to plan B.

 

[mfreund]

When it has outlived its usefulness. That may be by cost, usage or character.

 

[teejk]

When it has outlived its usefulness. That may be by cost, usage or character.

Some people shoot dogs when they no longer act like puppies!!! If the roof is good and most of the structure is good (based on the replies it seems to be the case), I'd try to save it. Nothing to lose really as long as nobody gets hurt around it. If it does have to come down, I hope he calls a reclaim outfit that will dismantle it and erect it somewhere else (those old mortise/tenon post and beam buildings can command some $$$). If that doesn't work, weathered barn boards and the beams are worth $$$ also.

 

[Sysop]

We are emotionally attached to it which is why I ask. I don't want the emotional attachment clouding the choice to be made. This farm has been in the family since 1763, the barn which was complete in 1850 sets right across the creek from one of the original Shawnee Indian villages. The confederates attempted to burn it during the civil war but it was a rainy day and the logs were mostly still green, so it never burned. After some minor repairs it was still usable.



Don't have any good pictures, just some random ones. First is inside one of the main sections of the barn. Second shows the wagon shed and barn from the rear paddock out by where the outhouse sets. The last of those three was just after the new farm house was completed in 1873.

 

[Sysop]

Here is another taken from the upstairs window of the house.

 

[Sysop]

Some people shoot dogs when they no longer act like puppies!!! If the roof is good and most of the structure is good (based on the replies it seems to be the case), I'd try to save it. Nothing to lose really as long as nobody gets hurt around it. If it does have to come down, I hope he calls a reclaim outfit that will dismantle it and erect it somewhere else (those old mortise/tenon post and beam buildings can command some $$$). If that doesn't work, weathered barn boards and the beams are worth $$$ also.

The value of reclaiming it was partly the basis of my question. I know once things get to a certain point the value of what is reclaimed would decrease and I was looking to try and determine if there was some signs or indicators as to what that point is that the value starts to decrease.

I would prefer to keep it totally original, but it's beyond what some paint on the sides and roof are going to fix. Another reason I was inquiring as to what the proper course of action should be. Much of the siding will need replaced, as will the metal roof which is all original from the repairs following the Civil War. It was well maintained with a fresh coat of paint every other year up until my Great Aunt began to neglect the property. The only thing that's been done at that place in the past 10-15 years is she paid to keep the grass mowed. If left to nature I suspect it would be unable to be repaired within another 5 to 10 years. As it stands it hasn't developed any leaks, but the metal is thin and ready to start leaking. The bottom edges of most of the siding boards have began to rot from lack of paint protection.

I've decided to do the work to it and just today called to have some 168" x 10" cut for the main front wall. A lot of what is on that wall will be able to be reused on other shorter areas once the bad ends are cut off. From my understanding none of this will effect the reclaim value at a future time, but it does protect the value for reclaim and as a useful structure.

 

[KretZ]

We are emotionally attached to it which is why I ask. I don't want the emotional attachment clouding the choice to be made. This farm has been in the family since 1763, the barn which was complete in 1850 sets right across the creek from one of the original Shawnee Indian villages. The confederates attempted to burn it during the civil war but it was a rainy day and the logs were mostly still green, so it never burned. After some minor repairs it was still usable.

Don't have any good pictures, just some random ones. First is inside one of the main sections of the barn. Second shows the wagon shed and barn from the rear paddock out by where the outhouse sets. The last of those three was just after the new farm house was completed in 1873.

Yeah I am with teejk, a barn that has been on your family farm for so long, with all that history. Not to mention it looks to be in pretty good shape. I don't know how old the more recent pictures are. I wouldn't bankrupt myself, but otherwise I would do what I could to save it. That is a special thing! Really cool.