Scott_in_WVA
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
- Messages
- 414
Thanks Von..../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
where are the coyotes?
- Thread starter Mosey
- Start date
- Views: 8415
RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.
I tried to prove the coyote guilty of attacking livestock and was unable; therefore I reached the conclusion he was innocent (at least in my neck o' the woods).
I tried to prove the coyote guilty of attacking livestock and was unable; therefore I reached the conclusion he was innocent (at least in my neck o' the woods).
EdKing
Platinum Member
By looking at your profile, and by your "poor choice of words" I assumed you merely "spent time in the country". I appologize for my poor assumption, but stand by my statements about coyotes taking livestock.
TresCrows
Elite Member
Do you have any of coyotes making crop circles too?
If farmers toil in the field it is by their choice just as my choices leave me no room to complain. If a few cows lost to coyotes is going to bring down a farmer and Western Civilization we are in big trouble, it comes with the territory. As to exticntion, grand statements were made about the Passenger Pigeon too and a few other things that are now gone along the way. Extinction can occur in one generation.
Oh, Hades, let's just kill eveything, plow eveything over and chop everything remaining down all for a few cents.
Lot's of talk but no numbers that really indicate that predatory animals are wiping out farmers, the banks and drought are doing that without any help from a few scrawny coyotes.
--and of course we have studies that show the lower amounts of pheasent and rabbits and whatnot are the direct result of coyotes--I wonder if it might not have something to do with people on tractors destroying habitat so they can build their houses on 5 acre plots---I am guilty, don't shoot.
Poor deer, between the coyotes eating them, the dogs chasing them and the hunters shooting them and now CWD, what is a buck to do, oh, well, I guess he can come eat all my trees.
J, the guy you love to hate but skeptical nonetheless
If farmers toil in the field it is by their choice just as my choices leave me no room to complain. If a few cows lost to coyotes is going to bring down a farmer and Western Civilization we are in big trouble, it comes with the territory. As to exticntion, grand statements were made about the Passenger Pigeon too and a few other things that are now gone along the way. Extinction can occur in one generation.
Oh, Hades, let's just kill eveything, plow eveything over and chop everything remaining down all for a few cents.
Lot's of talk but no numbers that really indicate that predatory animals are wiping out farmers, the banks and drought are doing that without any help from a few scrawny coyotes.
--and of course we have studies that show the lower amounts of pheasent and rabbits and whatnot are the direct result of coyotes--I wonder if it might not have something to do with people on tractors destroying habitat so they can build their houses on 5 acre plots---I am guilty, don't shoot.
Poor deer, between the coyotes eating them, the dogs chasing them and the hunters shooting them and now CWD, what is a buck to do, oh, well, I guess he can come eat all my trees.
J, the guy you love to hate but skeptical nonetheless
beenthere
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2001
- Messages
- 18,563
- Location
- Southern Wisconsin, USA
- Tractor
- JD_4x2_Gator, JD_4300, JD_425, JD_455 AWS, added JD_455, JD_110, JD_X485(sold)
Now Mosey, this has been a very interesting thread. Seems to follow the different viewpoints I have heard about coyotes from people (hunters, farmers, city folk, etc.) for the past 40+ years (that I cared). I do enjoy the different opinions, recollections, and experiences. I get bothered by the 'heated' parts of the discussions. Please, lets stay cool, even though we don't agree with everything someone else says. I am sure each one feels they know what they are talking about. But in a way, that seems to parallel the coyote, that is so very unpredictable in my opinion, and adaptable to many, many situations. They seem to be able to live right under our noses and close to our homes, and we don't (for the most part) even know they are there.
Lets be cool, okay?
Lets be cool, okay?
EdKing
Platinum Member
<font color=blue>I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property and woe unto he who shoots at them, it would likely be their last shot.</font color=blue>
Ahhh, I see. If it is your plants or your dogs, it is okay to harrass/hunt wildlife. But if it is someone elses livestock, you call them a liar, or cruel killers of poor defenceless animals.
Around here if you had your dogs chasing deer, and the Game Commission found out about it, you would be paying some heavy fines. Dogs, at least domestic ones, will run down and kill animals just because of thier hunting instinct.
My neighbor has shot coyotes in the act of killing lambs, not feeding on the dead bodies. By the way, my neighbor worked a full time job as well as his farm, to make ends meet. I wonder how this country will fare when all the farmers are driven out of business do to lack of income? Even the loss of a few animals hurts the smaller farmers, the losses my neighbor was suffering were a big hit on him financilly.
As far as coyotes taking wild game, like rabbits, deer, mice, etc., I feel more power to them. I can live with not getting as much game when I hunt, but keep them away from my animals.
Ahhh, I see. If it is your plants or your dogs, it is okay to harrass/hunt wildlife. But if it is someone elses livestock, you call them a liar, or cruel killers of poor defenceless animals.
Around here if you had your dogs chasing deer, and the Game Commission found out about it, you would be paying some heavy fines. Dogs, at least domestic ones, will run down and kill animals just because of thier hunting instinct.
My neighbor has shot coyotes in the act of killing lambs, not feeding on the dead bodies. By the way, my neighbor worked a full time job as well as his farm, to make ends meet. I wonder how this country will fare when all the farmers are driven out of business do to lack of income? Even the loss of a few animals hurts the smaller farmers, the losses my neighbor was suffering were a big hit on him financilly.
As far as coyotes taking wild game, like rabbits, deer, mice, etc., I feel more power to them. I can live with not getting as much game when I hunt, but keep them away from my animals.
cp1969-
<font color=blue>RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.</font color=blue>
What are you talking about??? Never did any such thing - All I said is that just because you haven't witnessed something, doesn't mean it can't or didn't happen. How is that "requiring you" to prove innocence??? A lack of seeing something when you weren't even around during the times in question is not evidence.
If you go back and read what I typed carefully, you'd see I never made any such implication. Since you fancy yourself a "judge" and have apparently appointed me "lead prosecutor", let's look at the facts:
(1) MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who have actually seen the act of a coyote killing livestock on multiple occasions.
2) A photograph of a coyote attacking a deer.
3) A study (disection) of over 8,000 coyote stomachs where the content contained livestock/deer
4) Personal conversations with "experts" (i.e. wildlife biologists) who say that coyotes can and do attack livestock/deer.
/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Hmmm - seems to me a preponderance of the evidence illustrates that coyotes are indeed capable and, indeed have (and most likely will continue) to feed on livestock/large game under certain specific conditions. (re-read my post and you'll see the specific conditions I believe impact this.)
Would you "vote guilty" for an individual on trial where you had multiple witnesses, photographic evidence, autopsy evidence and expert testimony? Or would you set them free to "walk the streets?" /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Just because the suspect had his mom or buddies testify that "he was a good guy" doesn't make him innocent as you imply and just because he doesn't kill every night doesn't make him less of a killer.
Nope, never asked you to prove innocence - just asked for you to look at the evidence and use applicable information instead of "character witness" psycho-babble.
I also fail to understand how you <font color=blue>"...tried to prove..."</font color=blue> the coyote's "guilt." Maybe I missed something, but I never saw you "testify" as to what actions you took in this "attempt." Seems to me that those with the opposite experiences of yours have offered real, hard, physical evidence. Can’t say you have done that. I'd be interested in knowing what you claim "proved" that a coyote would never behave "badly" it in your locale. Again, not seeing something doesn't prove innocense, so I fail to see how you could arrive at such a conclusion in "good faith."
<font color=blue>RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.</font color=blue>
What are you talking about??? Never did any such thing - All I said is that just because you haven't witnessed something, doesn't mean it can't or didn't happen. How is that "requiring you" to prove innocence??? A lack of seeing something when you weren't even around during the times in question is not evidence.
If you go back and read what I typed carefully, you'd see I never made any such implication. Since you fancy yourself a "judge" and have apparently appointed me "lead prosecutor", let's look at the facts:
(1) MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who have actually seen the act of a coyote killing livestock on multiple occasions.
2) A photograph of a coyote attacking a deer.
3) A study (disection) of over 8,000 coyote stomachs where the content contained livestock/deer
4) Personal conversations with "experts" (i.e. wildlife biologists) who say that coyotes can and do attack livestock/deer.
/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Hmmm - seems to me a preponderance of the evidence illustrates that coyotes are indeed capable and, indeed have (and most likely will continue) to feed on livestock/large game under certain specific conditions. (re-read my post and you'll see the specific conditions I believe impact this.)
Would you "vote guilty" for an individual on trial where you had multiple witnesses, photographic evidence, autopsy evidence and expert testimony? Or would you set them free to "walk the streets?" /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Just because the suspect had his mom or buddies testify that "he was a good guy" doesn't make him innocent as you imply and just because he doesn't kill every night doesn't make him less of a killer.
Nope, never asked you to prove innocence - just asked for you to look at the evidence and use applicable information instead of "character witness" psycho-babble.
I also fail to understand how you <font color=blue>"...tried to prove..."</font color=blue> the coyote's "guilt." Maybe I missed something, but I never saw you "testify" as to what actions you took in this "attempt." Seems to me that those with the opposite experiences of yours have offered real, hard, physical evidence. Can’t say you have done that. I'd be interested in knowing what you claim "proved" that a coyote would never behave "badly" it in your locale. Again, not seeing something doesn't prove innocense, so I fail to see how you could arrive at such a conclusion in "good faith."
TresCrows
Elite Member
OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido. Cows are more important than anything else. Ooookyyyy, when the coyotes are all gone and the vermin overun everything then what? No answer needed.
Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. No one is forcing them against their will. They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.
The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viablity of ranching or farming in the long run.
It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed.
Cheerio, off to bigger and better things. J
Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. No one is forcing them against their will. They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.
The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viablity of ranching or farming in the long run.
It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed.
Cheerio, off to bigger and better things. J
cowboydoc
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2000
- Messages
- 6,725
- Tractor
- JD 8320 MFWD, JD 6415 MFWD, FEL, and cab, John Deere MFWD 4600, John Deere 4020, John Deere 4430, John Deere 455 mower, Deutz, and Gehl 4610 perkins skidsteer
"What is the global impact of cattle ranching anyway, the methane produced as a greenhouse gas, the acerage required for their habitat and feeding etc, cattle ranching is environmentaly expensive"
Now you are showing your ignorance Tres Crow. I'm not saying you're ignorant but you are considerably misinformed about cattle ranching. Every single cow or calf is the bottom line. Cattle ranching is probably the most environmentally advantageous business that there is. The west was pretty much a dessert before farming and ranching came to the area. The farmers and ranchers made the land habitable and profitable and took care of it. Where there was nothing but sagebrush there is now grass and crops. Where there was nothing but washouts and canyons there is now soil conservation and erosion control. Ranchers are constantly trying to make the land better so they can raise better cattle and make the land produce better. With regard to methane gas it doesn't hold a candle to the cars that you drive.
It's futile to really even argue it though as people with your attitude never do see the good that farming and ranching do for this country. Just plain makes me sick that people that work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week and 365 days a year that they get belittled like your post.
Now you are showing your ignorance Tres Crow. I'm not saying you're ignorant but you are considerably misinformed about cattle ranching. Every single cow or calf is the bottom line. Cattle ranching is probably the most environmentally advantageous business that there is. The west was pretty much a dessert before farming and ranching came to the area. The farmers and ranchers made the land habitable and profitable and took care of it. Where there was nothing but sagebrush there is now grass and crops. Where there was nothing but washouts and canyons there is now soil conservation and erosion control. Ranchers are constantly trying to make the land better so they can raise better cattle and make the land produce better. With regard to methane gas it doesn't hold a candle to the cars that you drive.
It's futile to really even argue it though as people with your attitude never do see the good that farming and ranching do for this country. Just plain makes me sick that people that work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week and 365 days a year that they get belittled like your post.
TresCrows -
<font color=blue>OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido</font color=blue>
Wow! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What an arrogant and inaccurate interpretation of all the points made in this thread.
<font color=blue>Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. </font color=blue>
Give me a break. You obviously have no clue what goes in to farming/ranching. Boo Hoo! Life is SO TOUGH for all of us that sit behind a desk or punch a clock. Remember that most farmers/ranchers are self-employed and don't rely on "the man" for a pay check. If you are an accountant, a mechanic, a chef, whatever, there are lots of other employers out there if you decide to "look elsewhere." You own/run a farm/ranch? Well, you screw up, you can loose it all - Poof! That's it. Ever stop to understand as to why the "family farm" is disappearing? Perhaps, perhaps not - 'course you really could care less I suspect.
Why not trade YOUR job to run a farm/ranch if it is SOOOOO easy and SOOOO profitable? Huh??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Yea, I thought so......
<font color=blue>They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.</font color=blue>
Yea, I suppose you're right. Don't be grateful that someone out there has the guts to take a risk with their livelihood and get little pay to do it. What about "Joe Policeman"? Or "Joe Fireman"? Naw, they shouldn't deserve any respect either I suppose, huh? /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Oh, BTW, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, working in agriculture is more than twice as dangerous as being a police officer (based on fatality rates.)
<font color=blue>The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viability of ranching or farming in the long run. </font color=blue>
How would you know? You run the books for a farming/ranching operation? How would you have any CLUE as to what the "real" impacts are for an individual farmer/rancher? Just 'cause someone owns a couple of acres and a tractor (or 2) does not make them an expert in everything agricultural. Ahhh, another "self anointed expert" in something of which he has no knowledge of. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
<font color=blue>It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed. </font color=blue>
Perhaps it's because you speak of things of which you have no direct knowledge of and call those who do have real and direct knowledge liars or idiots. Hmmm, and you wonder why people get irked?
<font color=blue>Cheerio, off to bigger and better things.</font color=blue>
I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults.
<font color=blue>OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido</font color=blue>
Wow! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What an arrogant and inaccurate interpretation of all the points made in this thread.
<font color=blue>Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. </font color=blue>
Give me a break. You obviously have no clue what goes in to farming/ranching. Boo Hoo! Life is SO TOUGH for all of us that sit behind a desk or punch a clock. Remember that most farmers/ranchers are self-employed and don't rely on "the man" for a pay check. If you are an accountant, a mechanic, a chef, whatever, there are lots of other employers out there if you decide to "look elsewhere." You own/run a farm/ranch? Well, you screw up, you can loose it all - Poof! That's it. Ever stop to understand as to why the "family farm" is disappearing? Perhaps, perhaps not - 'course you really could care less I suspect.
Why not trade YOUR job to run a farm/ranch if it is SOOOOO easy and SOOOO profitable? Huh??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Yea, I thought so......
<font color=blue>They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.</font color=blue>
Yea, I suppose you're right. Don't be grateful that someone out there has the guts to take a risk with their livelihood and get little pay to do it. What about "Joe Policeman"? Or "Joe Fireman"? Naw, they shouldn't deserve any respect either I suppose, huh? /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Oh, BTW, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, working in agriculture is more than twice as dangerous as being a police officer (based on fatality rates.)
<font color=blue>The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viability of ranching or farming in the long run. </font color=blue>
How would you know? You run the books for a farming/ranching operation? How would you have any CLUE as to what the "real" impacts are for an individual farmer/rancher? Just 'cause someone owns a couple of acres and a tractor (or 2) does not make them an expert in everything agricultural. Ahhh, another "self anointed expert" in something of which he has no knowledge of. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
<font color=blue>It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed. </font color=blue>
Perhaps it's because you speak of things of which you have no direct knowledge of and call those who do have real and direct knowledge liars or idiots. Hmmm, and you wonder why people get irked?
<font color=blue>Cheerio, off to bigger and better things.</font color=blue>
I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults.
