Where did all the Made in USA tractors go?
- Thread starter coffeeman
- Start date
- Views: 3620
Highbeam
Super Member
Here's a weird question... The whole supply and demand curve tells us that everything has an equilibrium within the market. No one product can be way more exoensive that the other or noone will buy it just like no person's labor rate can be too high or noone will buy it. Basicly we all must average out to stay in business.
To me, theis means that if our companies use cheap labor from other countries that our workforce must compete and then cheapen our labor rates to match. The other countries can raise their rates to compete also. So... our lifestyles will be averaged with these third world countries. Places like India will be richer and we will be poorer.
I'm not entirely sure I want to live like they do in these poor countries. Is our quality of life on it's way down?
To me, theis means that if our companies use cheap labor from other countries that our workforce must compete and then cheapen our labor rates to match. The other countries can raise their rates to compete also. So... our lifestyles will be averaged with these third world countries. Places like India will be richer and we will be poorer.
I'm not entirely sure I want to live like they do in these poor countries. Is our quality of life on it's way down?
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
<font color="blue"> To me, theis means that if our companies use cheap labor from other countries that our workforce must compete and then cheapen our labor rates to match. The other countries can raise their rates to compete also. So... our lifestyles will be averaged with these third world countries. Places like India will be richer and we will be poorer.
I'm not entirely sure I want to live like they do in these poor countries. Is our quality of life on it's way down? </font>
Assuming a relatively static nature of things the answer would be "yes" our quality of life will go down. The reality is that as long as there is innovation, changing technology, and developement then the nations that lead in those things will continue to prosper, but it does not mean that all people will prosper.
But you make a fairly strong case for the "buy American" attitude and in many consumer goods we have lost all the jobs and that has lowered the standard of living for many. Wal-Mart now makes up 1% of the entire Chinese economy. Many other sectors are also growing. Other underdeveloped nations are progressing, India is very strong. Korea and Indonesia are now leading edge electronics producers although they still lag in many other areas. Our jobs have suffered but our consumers push for the cheapest things, our strengths lie in quality and design, the two are often diametrically opposed.
My preference is to buy American, when that can't be done I try to buy from an American company. The main purposes of those habits is to keep the money here, or at least keep more of it here. Even 100% American companies use foreign components, it is the reality of a global economy. But the difference is that foreign owned companies siphon off the profits and take them back to their home nations. Many foreign companies have sizeable investments here, but they have much larger investments in their home nations. They look to us as a market to get money from and to take it home.
So going back to your question asking if our quality of life will go down. . . maybe! But if we can do what we can do to support our own economy then we will stave it off and we will buy ourselves time to develop the next great thing. And each of us individually play a small role in that process. So if you want your children to prosper, it is probably best to support your own economy wherever is possible, try to buy American when possible, when not possible try to buy American owned but foreign produced (and then assembled here if possible). And those statements would apply to tractors, cars, TV sets, shirts, pants and even salt & pepper shakers.
Some level of foreign investment is positive, some level of foreign competition is positive. Those things drive our markets to push development farther ahead, to offer superior designs, to inovate new ideas.
Mike C wrote this about Kubota: <font color="green"> They also claim that they make the diesel engines in the U.S.A. </font>
Mike, nowhere in that document does Kubota claim to make their engines in the US. To my knoweldge Kubota does not have any casting or forging facilities here in the US. I'm under the distinct impression that Kubota ships over the basic engines and they do final assembly here, that would include the modifications used to adapt them for tractor, boat, or forklift uses, etc.
I'm not entirely sure I want to live like they do in these poor countries. Is our quality of life on it's way down? </font>
Assuming a relatively static nature of things the answer would be "yes" our quality of life will go down. The reality is that as long as there is innovation, changing technology, and developement then the nations that lead in those things will continue to prosper, but it does not mean that all people will prosper.
But you make a fairly strong case for the "buy American" attitude and in many consumer goods we have lost all the jobs and that has lowered the standard of living for many. Wal-Mart now makes up 1% of the entire Chinese economy. Many other sectors are also growing. Other underdeveloped nations are progressing, India is very strong. Korea and Indonesia are now leading edge electronics producers although they still lag in many other areas. Our jobs have suffered but our consumers push for the cheapest things, our strengths lie in quality and design, the two are often diametrically opposed.
My preference is to buy American, when that can't be done I try to buy from an American company. The main purposes of those habits is to keep the money here, or at least keep more of it here. Even 100% American companies use foreign components, it is the reality of a global economy. But the difference is that foreign owned companies siphon off the profits and take them back to their home nations. Many foreign companies have sizeable investments here, but they have much larger investments in their home nations. They look to us as a market to get money from and to take it home.
So going back to your question asking if our quality of life will go down. . . maybe! But if we can do what we can do to support our own economy then we will stave it off and we will buy ourselves time to develop the next great thing. And each of us individually play a small role in that process. So if you want your children to prosper, it is probably best to support your own economy wherever is possible, try to buy American when possible, when not possible try to buy American owned but foreign produced (and then assembled here if possible). And those statements would apply to tractors, cars, TV sets, shirts, pants and even salt & pepper shakers.
Some level of foreign investment is positive, some level of foreign competition is positive. Those things drive our markets to push development farther ahead, to offer superior designs, to inovate new ideas.
Mike C wrote this about Kubota: <font color="green"> They also claim that they make the diesel engines in the U.S.A. </font>
Mike, nowhere in that document does Kubota claim to make their engines in the US. To my knoweldge Kubota does not have any casting or forging facilities here in the US. I'm under the distinct impression that Kubota ships over the basic engines and they do final assembly here, that would include the modifications used to adapt them for tractor, boat, or forklift uses, etc.
You hit on a very important fact.
The reason that labor is leaving the US is because we live an expensive lifestyle. The days of someone living on minimum wage without government assistance are almost gone. Its near impossible for a single parent to afford a home, car, food and health insurance on $750 -800 per month bring home. So people cannot afford to work there nor can the large bussiness afford to pay their employees what they need while still making a profit.
The question would be, how do you fix it?
Populations are booming & people are living longer for various reasons, causing an unballanced supply and demand of workers. Property values are skyrocketing in and arround most big citys and all kinds of crazy financing is available to overextend the average consumer so he can live that lifestyle..
Where does it end? Large employers are struggling due to these facts as well as oil,steel, etc climbing in price too. So its getting worse.
Things are rough, but I try my best to support the US manufacturers because, in my estimation, 80% of the money is spent here supporting our economy. The overseas manufacturers are employing workers here too, so its not as bad as in the past, but they are just assemblers of the final product. Again, I believe it to be less than 10% of total investment made to in the US economy.
Mike, you may be right about Kubota. Though I am not sure their deffinition of manufacture is the same as yours. Either way, you got a good tractor, enjoy it.. No one has a 100% American built anything anymore..
By the way,I did break down and buy a Yanmar a few months ago, just because I couldnt justify the price of anything else for the little I needed it. So yes, in some cases, I'm part of the problem myself.
The reason that labor is leaving the US is because we live an expensive lifestyle. The days of someone living on minimum wage without government assistance are almost gone. Its near impossible for a single parent to afford a home, car, food and health insurance on $750 -800 per month bring home. So people cannot afford to work there nor can the large bussiness afford to pay their employees what they need while still making a profit.
The question would be, how do you fix it?
Populations are booming & people are living longer for various reasons, causing an unballanced supply and demand of workers. Property values are skyrocketing in and arround most big citys and all kinds of crazy financing is available to overextend the average consumer so he can live that lifestyle..
Where does it end? Large employers are struggling due to these facts as well as oil,steel, etc climbing in price too. So its getting worse.
Things are rough, but I try my best to support the US manufacturers because, in my estimation, 80% of the money is spent here supporting our economy. The overseas manufacturers are employing workers here too, so its not as bad as in the past, but they are just assemblers of the final product. Again, I believe it to be less than 10% of total investment made to in the US economy.
Mike, you may be right about Kubota. Though I am not sure their deffinition of manufacture is the same as yours. Either way, you got a good tractor, enjoy it.. No one has a 100% American built anything anymore..
By the way,I did break down and buy a Yanmar a few months ago, just because I couldnt justify the price of anything else for the little I needed it. So yes, in some cases, I'm part of the problem myself.
Bob,
you could be correct with "Wal-Mart now makes up 1% of the entire Chinese economy.", however, from what I have read every time all the Walmart lovers shop there they are promoting there wonderful labor wage of $0.50 per hour in China.
You can all so it is only 1%, but Walmart imports $20 to $30 billion a year form this communist country.
Also several aircraft manufactures are shipping design’s (commercial) and soon military if they can find a way overseas; use some in China.
you could be correct with "Wal-Mart now makes up 1% of the entire Chinese economy.", however, from what I have read every time all the Walmart lovers shop there they are promoting there wonderful labor wage of $0.50 per hour in China.
You can all so it is only 1%, but Walmart imports $20 to $30 billion a year form this communist country.
Also several aircraft manufactures are shipping design’s (commercial) and soon military if they can find a way overseas; use some in China.
Cityboyfarmer
Gold Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2005
- Messages
- 371
- Location
- Macon, Ga.
- Tractor
- Kubota B8200D; JD 5205 MFWD w/522 Loader
I have to disagree with the general opinion here. I do not believe our standard of living will go down in this global economy unless we engage in protectionism and other governmental economic meddling. There are some products that are better manufactured in other countries than here. Many production line knickknacks would be unaffordable if produced here, even many assembly line electronic products.
As stated earlier, we are a consumer driven economy. We want it better, cheaper and faster. Like it or not, the average American IS NOT willing to pay a premium for a made in America product, especially if that product is not superior to the cheaper foreign manufactured product.
Remember the late 70’s when the Japanese auto makers began shipping their cars here in massive numbers? American consumers responded positively because American car manufacturers had become so arrogant that they let quality go down the tubes, assuming American consumers would continue to be good lemmings and keep buying their junk. Remember the Chrysler K cars and the GM X cars? Lots of Americans still refuse to buy American cars because they got burned in the 70’s and 80’s by the poor quality produced by U.S. automakers. The best thing that ever happened to improve American auto manufacturing was Honda and Toyota. Their competition forced the big three to revisit their arrogant attitudes and start taking quality and value seriously.
So I say do not be so quick to bemoan the global economy. It is a changing world and you must either change with it in order to survive and prosper or be swept away standing on the sidelines.
As stated earlier, we are a consumer driven economy. We want it better, cheaper and faster. Like it or not, the average American IS NOT willing to pay a premium for a made in America product, especially if that product is not superior to the cheaper foreign manufactured product.
Remember the late 70’s when the Japanese auto makers began shipping their cars here in massive numbers? American consumers responded positively because American car manufacturers had become so arrogant that they let quality go down the tubes, assuming American consumers would continue to be good lemmings and keep buying their junk. Remember the Chrysler K cars and the GM X cars? Lots of Americans still refuse to buy American cars because they got burned in the 70’s and 80’s by the poor quality produced by U.S. automakers. The best thing that ever happened to improve American auto manufacturing was Honda and Toyota. Their competition forced the big three to revisit their arrogant attitudes and start taking quality and value seriously.
So I say do not be so quick to bemoan the global economy. It is a changing world and you must either change with it in order to survive and prosper or be swept away standing on the sidelines.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
I don't think that you and I are very far apart at all. There is no question that protectionism has hurt us in the past (as you stated just look at our auto industry) and it will hurt us in the future.
My real point is that we can, as consumers, support American companies and that helps, but while that is the case, we also have to look at product innovation, changes, and development and as long as we can continue to innovate our goods and products then we can maintain our lead. My key point is that we need to continue to innovate (change). Your final point is that we need to continue to change. And I think that many forward thinking manufacturers look forward to change (innovation) to keep their lead in the markets.
My real point is that we can, as consumers, support American companies and that helps, but while that is the case, we also have to look at product innovation, changes, and development and as long as we can continue to innovate our goods and products then we can maintain our lead. My key point is that we need to continue to innovate (change). Your final point is that we need to continue to change. And I think that many forward thinking manufacturers look forward to change (innovation) to keep their lead in the markets.
I think America is way off at each end of the spectrum with the middle being about right. Explanation: For the low end of things, I think unions are one of the major reasons American companies can't compete anymore. A long time back, unions came around to balance the power. Corporations had entirely too much power over the workforce, but now it has come full circle unions have waaay too much power over the companies. Their workforce is greatly overpayed. An example, I have a Freightliner plant near me. Floor sweepers there generaly get payed in excess of $20 an hour. Regardless of how long they have worked, that skill set shouldn't be much over minimum wage.
American workers have come to expect way too much.. just because. I agree that companies should pay the going price for a certain skillset, but there are far too many examples of inflated wages due to unions.
On the high side of things, I think there are two intermingled reasons. The top 1-2% of wages in a corporation are waaay to high. And the tendency of companies to go public. Once a company goes public, without fail, the quality and price of a product as well as customer satisfaction become a SECONDARY concern. Publicly traded companies are NOT satisfied showing a profit. They will typically destroy, or nearly destroy themselves trying to show profit INCREASE from year to year. This creates the following product cycle. 1) R&D to make a GREAT and FAR above average product. 2) sell above average product to public until the public is hooked on such a nicely crafted, well engineered product. 3) Once at that point, and product is selling like hotcakes, then pull back on product quality to maximize profits. This works for a little while until the public catches on and the company either implodes under its own weight or just barely makes it out alive to start the cycle anew with product #2 (and maybe a name change so the public forgets).
Take Google for instance. Excellent company. Made all the right decisions that weighed consumer rights and great service against profits. They have gone public, and the swing to the evil side has begun. Privacy is much less of a concern. Google ads are much more prevalent. Corporate decisions are increasingly being driven by the profit motive first and good product second, rather than making the best product available with knowledge that the customers will flock to it.
American workers have come to expect way too much.. just because. I agree that companies should pay the going price for a certain skillset, but there are far too many examples of inflated wages due to unions.
On the high side of things, I think there are two intermingled reasons. The top 1-2% of wages in a corporation are waaay to high. And the tendency of companies to go public. Once a company goes public, without fail, the quality and price of a product as well as customer satisfaction become a SECONDARY concern. Publicly traded companies are NOT satisfied showing a profit. They will typically destroy, or nearly destroy themselves trying to show profit INCREASE from year to year. This creates the following product cycle. 1) R&D to make a GREAT and FAR above average product. 2) sell above average product to public until the public is hooked on such a nicely crafted, well engineered product. 3) Once at that point, and product is selling like hotcakes, then pull back on product quality to maximize profits. This works for a little while until the public catches on and the company either implodes under its own weight or just barely makes it out alive to start the cycle anew with product #2 (and maybe a name change so the public forgets).
Take Google for instance. Excellent company. Made all the right decisions that weighed consumer rights and great service against profits. They have gone public, and the swing to the evil side has begun. Privacy is much less of a concern. Google ads are much more prevalent. Corporate decisions are increasingly being driven by the profit motive first and good product second, rather than making the best product available with knowledge that the customers will flock to it.
Just changed my fluids on my Mahindra 4110. Of particular interest to me was the suction filter and the inside of the canister that holds the filter. The inside of the filter looked like an old piece of pipe wacked off and some welding and bolts and now we have a filter canister. The inside was rough and not machined off. Also the bolt holes that held the filter in on one side had to be lined up. If put in different holes than the original ones, the filter cover would be lopsided. Bottom line it wasn't like I remember when I was younger and changing oil in my trusty old Farmall.
As much as folks like to knock American quality, they are mostly wrong. American is always good, it's just people want cheap.
Cheers......Coffeeman
As much as folks like to knock American quality, they are mostly wrong. American is always good, it's just people want cheap.
Cheers......Coffeeman
