Where should we locate the well?

stumpfield · Mar 10, 2006

I found an interesting paper from Penn State. Water Facts #5. by the School of Forest Resources. It's interesting... It says the fracture zone is usually under surface depression. Not on a ridge or hill.

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/sfr5.pdf

Interesting reading...

EddieWalker · Mar 10, 2006

I just skimmed over it since it's not something I'm dealing with, just curious about it is all.

The very first picture shows it clearly, or at least that's how I thought it worked. Sure you can hit water on a ridge or in a field, the water table travles horizontally from the source.

It just makes sense to me that rivers, canyons and lakes would be the best source of water for the aquafier's.

It also makes sense that drillers will tell clients where the best place to drill is, even if it's not the best place for a well. Getting the truck to the very best place could be completely impossible.

Eddie

LarryD · Mar 11, 2006

Our wells here on the valley floor between Mt. Rainier and the puget sound are several hundered feet deep despite our ground elevation of 60 feet above sea level.


According to my GPS, I'm 11' below the highest point on Whidbey Island, 501' (USGS maps sorta concure), and my pump is at 72', just goes to show where you'll find water.

I rented a house from a guy that knew a geologist who surveyed an area for a developer to find the best place for a well that could support a 10 home development. The geologist identified the most likely place to drill and 5 holes later, not enough water.

My landlord has him come up to his parcel as a favor to point out the best place to drill and it's on the side of a hill, across a salmon spawning stream. Now we all know (at least in the northwest) that's going to require 14 agencies to sign off on that, so Andy paces off 101' from the septic leach field and says drill here.

50' and 200gpm (best guess) later the driller finally gets his rig off the artesian well and caps it. This all took place less than 50' from the creek, about 25' above it.

If I was looking for water, I would give serious thought to a witcher. I have never made it work for me but I've seen it work. JMHO

MarkV · Mar 11, 2006

Something else that could come into play, as I read the different options for the well placement, is running the pipe. It sounds like you have solid rock close to the surface and difficult access to much of the property. Here in the south, without much worry of freezing, we still set our water lines 2’ below surface. As I hear mention of ¼ and ½ mile pipe runs I have to wonder if that is possible or practical. Guess anything is possible but it could cost more than the well drilling itself.

Could be worth looking into what the trenching would cost and see how that compares to drilling deep closer to the house site.

MarkV

Egon · Mar 11, 2006

Just did a little looking.

Seems the San Andreas are basicly formed from a fractured Granitic Batholye. As said water will be in the fractures. Finding the fractures may be a hit and miss afair.

Farther west in the valley there are deposition sediments making for a completly different aquifier structure.

web page

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ByronBob · Mar 11, 2006

I'm with Mark. What about freezing temps and the mtns being solid rock. Can you bury the lines to begin with?

You need to get a driller up there and walk the property and show him what you've got going on first.

turnkey4099 · Mar 11, 2006

( ( He said the canyons and ravines that carry water are the worst to drill because the rock in those places have been squeezed together so tight that there are very few fissures in those locations. )

OK, call me slow, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Ravines and canyons are caused by erosion, not movement of the plats. What would cause them to be sqeezed together?

I'm of the opinion that those locations are where the magority of the underground water suplly comes from. Rain doesn't come down heavy enough saturate the land down hundreds of feet. It just travel down there along a path of some kind. I always though this happened in the mountains from the crackes in the rock, and the the vast majoritiy of it came from lakes and rivers.

Could it also just be a story that well drillers tell to avoid having to deal with the absolute most dificult location for the to get their drilling rigs to???

Sorry for my ignorance,
Eddie

)

Same here. It looked like an old wives tale to me. I think the well driller is full of it.

Surface water is no indication of aquifers except for active springs. A spring by it's very nature is the outflow from and aquifer. A running stream (unless spring fed) is only draining off surface water.

To show the nature of underlying geography. Both me and my neighbor just across the highway from me both drilled wells.

Mine hit 20 gpm at 60 ft. Went through mostly clay, loam and fractured rock. No solid bed rock until near the source.

His hit solid beadrock 9 ft below the surface and remained that all the way down. Don't recall the figures now but he went something like 180 ft and only hit 4-5 gpm. Those wells are only a few hundred feet apart on opposite sides of a small valley with a running creek down the middle.

Harry K

stumpfield · Mar 11, 2006

Just want to add that I'm at about 3000' elevation. Ground freezing is not a problem. The temperature rarely fall below freezing. It may snow a few times a year, but usually melt when the sun comes out.
Although it's all rock underneath, there's 10-20 feet of soil before you hit solid rock. Certain spots we may see rock on the surface or just 1-2 feet below ground in eroded area along the creek. The soil is sandy loam and very easy to dig. So, we shouldn't have any difficulty trenching and burrying the pipes. We already cut a 1/2 mile driveway and the building pad. So we know the soil condition along the driveway. That's where the pipe will be buried.

We are hoping for a high yield well and use for irragation as well as demostic water use. We just want an educated choice of a well location with a higher probability of finding a reasonable amount of water. Well drillers just want to drill. They don't want to get involve in other stuff or make suggestions on what's best for you and I don't blame them. That just part of the business.

I rather build a road and grade a level pad for the well driller if the location is more favorable. I don't want to just pick a spot just because it easy for the driller to setup his rig.

The reason I was a little skeptical was because when I met the 1st well driller (before we cut the driveway...) He suggest to drill right at the entrance. I guess that's the only place he can drill at the time.

The 2nd well driller came later (we have about 500' of driveway and a turn around area at 400'...). Now he can drive his truck in and stop at the 400' turn around area. He suggest that's the spot to drill. He didn't even go past that point.

I'm sure there are all kinds of well drilling stories and many non-scientific methods to find water. It's like the lottery. People hit the jackot every week. If my goal was to to make a million buck, buying the lottery definitely not the 1st thing I would try.

I'm still researching whether drilling near a lower elevation ravine/creek with known year-round springs below is a more favorable location than on top of a ridge or somewhere in between. It will cost me $2000 of dozer work to cut a road and grade a pad there. At $15/foot drilling rate, I can recover that cost very quickly.

stumpfield · Mar 11, 2006

Here's a better picture of the diagram. It makes a lot of sense to me. What do you think?

3RRL · Mar 13, 2006

Well, I don't know what to tell you guys other than what I was told by my driller. And in my case he suggested the right spot. I too thought that drilling in or near the ravine would surely get water but he told me no. Don't know what to tell you about his statement that the rock is "squeezed" together tightly in a ravine such as mine. He said geological movement had pushed the earth around and the recessed areas were "squeezed" tight together and the ridges were force up. By doing so, the ridges had more fissures in them by being pushed up and shifted.

Like I said before, I'm no well expert and he is. He must know something because of the 3 or 4 drillers in our area, he is the only one reccomended by everyone there.

I read that link to the well locations in PA and it makes sense to me, like it did before he told me...so now what? I don't know? Maybe Eddie is on to something about drilling in a ravine is **** near impossible? However, in my case there were several spots I could have made easy access to in the smaller, narrower sections of the ravine. It is about 100' -150' or so and parallel to the current wellsite. But again, he suggested an area where I later pin-pointed the wellsite by witching and I had to level that area anyway.

Wonder if it has anything to do with impeding the natural flow of water in some way? Or maybe he just knows that area? Experience is the best teacher in many cases.

Highbeam · Mar 13, 2006

Great picture stumpfield. It shows the water that you do not want to drink. That water is surface water, you could go beside that creek and hand dig a 5 foot hole and a sump pump for water. Nevermind the dead beaver just upstream or the farmer applying escessive insecticides. Go down a hundred or more feet for the aquifer of actual clean groundwater. The schematic also displays a common misunderstanding that once you hit the first water table, that the ground from that point down is water bearing. It is just not so, there are layers of water between different layers of soils and rock.

We have a well in town that is some 450 feet deep (ground is 60' above sea level) that is an artesian. Meaning that water will actually squirt up above ground level if it wasn't capped. Before it was drilled, nothing.

A lot of this discussion depends on the geology of the area. Our wells aren't drilled into rock. Just dirt, gravel, clay, etc. I have got to think that the geology and where the water is is different between rock and dirt. And yes, experience is very important here. That local well driller probably has drilled enough wells to see a pattern.

3RRL · Mar 13, 2006

stupfield,
Don't get me wrong here...I'm not saying that your research is incorrect, I'm only telling you what my driller told me. So when I said drilling on the ridge is the best location, it's because that's what he told me. In any case, someone posted it's a hit-and-miss thing too and that's very real. My guy told me after not getting any water in one spot, he's had to move over just a few feet to get water... has done that too.

Here's a couple more examples in my area. My wife reminded me about my neighbor below me who has his well on the same ridge as mine. He had to drill way down like 700' to get his 70 gals/min. and I am at least 150' above him and got mine at 442' on the same ridge. Go figure?

Another one is a local rancher (big time in our community) who insisted on having them drill where HE wanted. The well drillers told him to put it up on this particular ridge on his property but he insisted. They drilled where he wanted and got 2 gals/min after 580'. Drilled deeper to about 700' (almost their max) and got no more flow. The rancher told them to try "their" spot and they got 150+ gals/min at 450'. These are all hard rock wells drilled in my area....so maybe alluvial well drilling differs?

stumpfield · Mar 13, 2006

3RRL: I believe you. I just found out a friend's dad also in Mariposa county (I've personally visisted his ranch.) have to drill 4 wells to get enough water. 1st well, he picked next to a shallow creek (not a ravine or valley but more like a natural drainage ditch) down to 500'. No water. I mean 0.001gpm. The well driller pick the rest of the spots through witching. Finally, he got 120gpm at 220'. This is all within a few hundred feet. That's the nature of drilling in the sierra nevada foothills. His topography is a little different. He's on the side of a hill. No obvious ridge top or lower meadow area. No spring or anything near by. We thought it was just pure coincidence.

I guess you are lucky to find a well driller willing to make a more in depth assessment of your property and gave you good sugguestions.

3RRL · Mar 13, 2006

stumpfield,
I was very fortunate to these guys in my area. They get business strictly by word of mouth. Their reputation and business depends on quality work and a decent success ratio. They're old guys like me now but are still busier than heck. In another post I mentioned they used to drill all around Central/Southern California. If you want, I can give you their name and phone# to see if they have any experience drilling in your area and if they'd be interested in advising/drilling for you. Just PM me.

3RRL · Mar 13, 2006

My wife found another link for more information about the hard rock wells in our area. It's different than the one Egon posted.
CLICK HERE

I got the well log out and found that at 255' we hit 20 gls/min. At 360' we hit another 10 gals/min and at 442' we hit 70+ gals/min. This gives us at least those 3 fractures to draw water from, combining for the 100+ gals/min. Standing water is at 170' and the pump is set at 312' deep.

stumpfield · Mar 14, 2006

Wow, that's great information and very well explained. I also found a lot of good information from the dept of water resource. Now I have a pretty good understanding of the situtation. To find lots of water in this area, you really need good luck. It's very difficult to pinpoint a favorable area to drill. It's like rolling the dice very time. 3RRL: You hit the jackpot on your well. Based on statistics, the majority of the wells in this area are 10-20gpm. Your well is on the other side of the bell curve and you got it on the 1st try.

turnkey4099 · Mar 14, 2006

Just a comment on the diagram. It is misleading as it is really not the normal situation. That shows the underground aquifer surfacing at the bottom of a draw. Normal situation is that surface water (streams) usuall have nothing to do with an aquifer -in the area one wants to drill-. Even where I am on top of a very good, shallow aquifer (can't recall the name now but it pretty well covers the Palouse) we have streams running that drain the country. Drill anywhere and you will probably hit water. Very few of the streams are the result of the aquifer through this area although some of them do have aquifer outflows up near the headwaters miles away.

Harry K

nharrold · Mar 22, 2006

I've never bought a rural property without first having a reputable water dowser check it over thoroughly for me. In every case, the dowser has located veins of running water at much shallower depths and greater flows than the local well drillers had suggested would be the case. Saved me a lot of dry holes and a lot of bucks to boot.

You may have some difficulty locating a dowser nearby, but don't give up. You can also check: http://www.dowsers.org for assistance in locating a local group or individual.