Which Caroni rotor?

[john4153]

The type B rotor (56 blades) seems to be what is advertised most for the Caroni TM1900. Is there any disadvantage to the type F rotor with twice the number of blades?

Going to buy one soon and need to decide.

John

 

[leonz]

Caroni flail mower

The type B rotor (56 blades) seems to be what is advertised most for the Caroni TM1900. Is there any disadvantage to the type F rotor with twice the number of blades?

Going to buy one soon and need to decide.

John

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Ah yes, the "either or issue".

The F rotor will cost more but the greater number of knives for slicing grass and brush are worth every penny; especially mowing wet brush and turf.
The 4 row F rotor will provide you with a better cut and you can go from brush to turf and back to brush with out changing knives
and you wil have nothing left to clean up other than possibly going over thick weed stalks twice.

I have a mathews 48 inch lawn genie with staggered knife hangers and The grass slicer Y blades and I have been very happy with it as it takes much less time to mow turf than with our wheel horse 525 with the 60 inch deck.


The F rotor will have more knives mowing the entire width of cut at all times slicing the grass or brush into very tiny bits with little left to see on the ground and it will slice up any left overclippings and slice them even more.


All depends on your turf or brush situation and how much time you spend motoring around the place to mow.

The nice thing about the grass knives is that when they slice the grass blades they stress the grass much less than a rotary mower and the same thing occurrs witht he cup knives for grass slicing- you need to proceed at a slower forward speed to get a nice turf edge though and the cup knives tend to ding up more where the Y blades have huge cutting surface in total inches of slicing edge.

Either way you wont make a mistake but the F rotor will be a plus with any thickness of brush or overgrown grass which eliminates buying hammer knives for a B rotor.

Having the four rows of knives will make mowing a breeze with few if any clippings to see and if there are any you can just goe over it again and slice them some more.


The one drawback with the B rotor is you have to drive slower to get a finer sliced turf and brush work

please be sure to purchase the spring disc type slip clutch PTO shaft for your tractor and mower as it is the first line of defense for your tractors drive train after the mowers V belts.

Edit: You have to run the engine at the proper high rpm to maintain the 540 RPM speed delivered to the rotor or you will plug up the mower and burn the belts as it is not cutting at a high rpm of 100 MPH or greater under the mowers hood.

 

[john4153]

Wow, thanks for the detailed answer. I love it when theory and experience agree with my gut feeling.

I suppose, if one really wanted to use hammers and/or had limited HP, you could always just put half the number of blades on (balanced, of couse). That is not my situation. I had the field bush hogged about 3 months ago, and it is not too bad yet. Once I get it beaten down, it will never get that bad again.

Thanks again,

John

 

[leonz]

The nice thing about the flail mower is that you can knock it down even further when the brush dies off john, and you can also do it when it is winter kiilled and not snow covered and have even less to worry about with blood ticks, mosquito eggs and ground wasp nests late in the season.

 

[leonz]

Wow, thanks for the detailed answer. I love it when theory and experience agree with my gut feeling.

I suppose, if one really wanted to use hammers and/or had limited HP, you could always just put half the number of blades on (balanced, of couse). That is not my situation. I had the field bush hogged about 3 months ago, and it is not too bad yet. Once I get it beaten down, it will never get that bad again.

Thanks again,

John

FYI when you mow with a rotary/hog it is not using the entire cutting width during mowing like a flailmower would and the cutting edge length is much shorter than the total knife edge length of a two blade hog.


if and when you buy it and it is delivered please please please be sure to grease the roller and rotor bearings and the fittings under the belt guard -

When you grease the tow rotor bearing the first time they may be low on grease and the bearings need to filled completely BUUUUUUUT

be sure not to overgrease it john or you will blow out the lip seals.


You can rotate the rotor by hand and grease it before you install the PTO shaft for the very first time to be sure the bearing has no air gaps which will be the kiss of death for a spherical roller bearing.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I have the B rotor. I'm happy with it, but in cutting nice lawn grass fairly low, I can see a definite sort of wavy, serrated, or "waffle" pattern in the cut grass. This is a result of the Y-shaped knives and the limited number of them. Functionally it's just fine but cosmetically, if you are really picky about your lawn, it wouldn't look the prettiest.

Based on very limited experience so far, I'd suggest F for exclusive lawn use, and B for flexible brush/pasture/lawn use.

 

[john4153]

Thanks for the input. Still waiting to see if Agrisupply can get the F head. I called yesterday, but the person who knew was on vacation.

Every other dealer and rental place I have talked to has either stopped selling/renting flail mowers or has stock that has been sitting for years. The chief complaints are: 1) Maintenance hogs; and 2) They don't do well on bumpy ground. One dealer even said that the highway department and golf courses (his two biggest customers for flail mowers) were switching to rear discharge finish mowers.

John

 

[leonz]

Flail mower saga continues:

Thanks for the input. Still waiting to see if Agrisupply can get the F head. I called yesterday, but the person who knew was on vacation.

Every other dealer and rental place I have talked to has either stopped selling/renting flail mowers or has stock that has been sitting for years.

UH HUH they buy equipment from suppliers on nationall rental association buying pool and for the reasons mentioned they do not have any to rent-

Its not that way in europe and thier mower safety and noise standards are much more stringent than ours and they sell more flail mowers

because of pedestrian traffic and road mowing in cities.


IF they dont have it sold, you should offer them 500-1000$ for it if that gets it for you to use as it just needs greasing, oiling and cleaning after you take it home. and I will be able to help you with it by e-mail.



The chief complaints are: 1) Maintenance hogs;

UH HUH SURE THEY ARE.

1. grease the main rotor bearings every day and do not over grease them, grease the rear roller bearings and the spring idler pulley arm bearings
and look at the drive belts and grease the wheel bearings on occasion if it has them, check the oil level in the gear box and look at the knives once in awhile.

Thats just an excuse period, no matter the flail mower it takes less work to maintain them than a rotary mower. They also neglected tomention that the hours of mowing per year are very low in total didn't they?

You should ask the township in tennesee that parked all their brush mowers after one lost a blade recently because the cutting blade became disconnected and was launched and went through a exterior wall of a house or trailer home and landed next to a crib with a sleeping baby in it

The link to the article is in the attachment forums.


and 2) They don't do well on bumpy ground.

Thats another "blowing smoke in your face" excuse
you mow very fast any mower will do poorly with the rotaries doing a worse mowing job because they cannot cut fast enough.


UH HUH, SURE THEY DONT!!!!!

The flail mower weighs more than a belly mower.
The flailmower has full width of cut where a rotary mower does not!!!!!!
The flail mower has a full wifth roller to stop scalping and protect the rotor and knives from dropping suddenly.

If they stopped driving so fast while mowing it would not be an issue and no unmowed ground would be seen.

The explanation is just TALK period!


One dealer even said that the highway department and golf courses (his two biggest customers for flail mowers) were switching to rear discharge finish mowers.

They only want NEW EQUIPMENT less costly equipment rather than maintaining the older equipment for less money and I would be willing to bet the golf courses may be owned by the municipality as many are. If not they have a boarde of directors and everything purchased goes out for bid to the lowest bidder and the flail mowers are at scrap value and they can no longer be held as assets BECAUSE THEY COST LESS TO OWN and repair and the 7 year usefull life of the asset is gone if it cost more than 10,000 dollars

DID he also bother to tell you that they buy anything from anyone, as long as they are the low bidder, and or a pre-qualified qualified state vendor to save money????!!!!! Thats why!!!

The belly mower:


The rotary mower whether it is a walk behind or a rider is dependent on two things speed and more speed and a short length cutting edge counting on the blades rotation speed to cut the grass as it advances forward period and it will throw objects with no hesitation as the grass discharge is open to the surroundings.







A belly mower or rear finish mower is created with one small thickness sheet of plate steel typically and put in a press to form the body and the weldments for the wheels, and grass baffles are welded on. the top plate may be drilled for the blade arbors or the arbor holes are pressed and the blanks dropped out when the sheet is pressed.

Some belly mowers are made from heavier sheet steel and welded together this is how the brush hogs and wide rear finish mowers are made in this way


The arbors are installed after the mounting holes are drilled in the top of the mower the where the lower bearings and belt pullies, idlers pullies, and hardware are attached to make the blade mount. the blades are attached and the deck is painted, the belt cover guards are added later and the mower is put in storage.

they cost less to make and thats the only reason period.

Mott made a belly mount flailmower for the IH high wheel lowboy and other tractors and that model died because of the less costly tractors with belly mower and also killed the Mott walk behind mower as well because of the single rotary blade walk behind mower available at that time
which could still throw objects they hit where the walk behind flail did not.


Flail mowers for mowing in residential, farm or municipal use are a precision piece of farm equipment that requires adequate design and strong materials.

The job starts with the mowers shroud as it is formed from one sheet and the sides are welded to it (mower hood) after they have been machined and the rest of the steel for the rear roller, and the gear box, gear bix support plate and cross shaft weldments are welded together and the rest of it is assembled.


Any good flail mower has a rotor that is balanced an that is a must because of the G forces involved






John

You know there is and saying that is still true years after Samuel Clemen AKA

Mark Twain who was born not to far from here said:

Theres LIES, **** LIES, AND ECONOMICS!!!!


The old mining joke goes like this-Dont tell me its raining when I have my back
turned to the tunnel fan and your peeing on the intake side of it.

ALamo bought the Mott Mower company to kill thier competion and that eliminated the second builder of motorised flail mowers and secured their hold on the market even further.

They(Mott Mower company) offered a beautiful three point hitch 6-8 foot flailmower that had an air cooled Wisconsin V-4 engine (just like the self propelled Hesston haybines mounted on the end to power it with a centrufugul clutch I think from what I remember seeing the only one I ever encountered.

The Mathews company stopped building them shortly after for the same reason as belly mowers and rear brush hogs were very inexpensive to buy and sell high because of canadian steel that was dumped on the market.


There! I am done venting.

 

[Z-Michigan]

My pastures are pretty bumpy and I had used a rotary cutter for 3 1/2 years previously. So far the flail is working at least as well. The flail is relatively compact and very solid, where a typical light duty RC is very big and inherently a little bit flexible due to the huge size. (This may not apply to the heavy duty RC's that weigh a ton or more, I don't know.)

I am also impressed at how it absolutely digests tall (5') stemmy weeds and turns them into mulch.

Lack of thrown objects was a big plus for me. My RC had f/r safety chains but on occasion still threw a rock up to 50-60' at high speed. So far the flail has thrown a single smallish rock about 20' at moderate speed, forward of the tractor. I didn't have any scary incidents with my RC but I sure avoided mowing with it near the house, people, or livestock/pets. I'm still testing the flail but anticipate that I'll be able to mow close to the house and livestock without much worry (I'll probably still avoid mowing near people and pets).

 

[psj12]

Mowing brush with my TM1900 up to the rated circumfrence. When backing into the brush I dented and or slightly bent my rear roller pushing the brush over. I would like the roller to be made of somewhat stouter stuff. I may look for some thick wall pipe to fabricate a replacement.

 

[leonz]

I believe you can buy the front guard sections that bolt to the front edge of the hood and eliminate any chance of material being thrown forward for most of the mowers or have a bit if sheet metal formed and bolt it to the front edge of the shroud to enclose it further-depending on your knife length you should be able to lower the mower for mowing around the home as well so the shroud is closer to the ground a piece of belting is also a good way for you to cover the front and stop any thing from being bounced-thats what we have on our 48 inch mower.

 

[leonz]

Mowing brush with my TM1900 up to the rated circumfrence. When backing into the brush I dented and or slightly bent my rear roller pushing the brush over. I would like the roller to be made of somewhat stouter stuff. I may look for some thick wall pipe to fabricate a replacement.

I would repair it if it no longer rolls freely and take it to a welding shop to straighten it with a press.

Thats exactly what Iron horse did with his Cabe flail mower (Ithink it was his Cabe anyway) I think he backed into a concrete post dont remember exactly-whoopsie

 

[john4153]

I am not trying to argue against or for anything. Last night, I had decided to buy a flail mower with the F rotor (if Agrisupply can get it). This morning, I made a few more telephone calls and, as a result, have decided to reassess that decision. I spent the whole day talking to people about the differences. My decision is between a flail mower and a rear-discharge finish mower. True, that is a rotary-type mower, but most vendors list finish mowers separately from rotary mowers of the heavy duty, single rotating mass type.

Let's assume that a good, 72" (e.g, Caroni) flail mower and a good finsh mower (e.g., Land Pride) cost exactly the same. They do in my town. They both mow grass and are relatively safe compared to the single-blade rotary mower. Which would you chose?

1) Maintenance: Flail is more, but perhaps not a whole lot more. You do not need to grease the spindles each day of use for the finish mower. It has fewer parts and fewer parts to fail. Sharpening is just 3 blades, not 60+, but that is not done very often for either. The flail mower has a rear roller that has come up a few times on this forum as something that gets bent. The finish mower does not. The flail mower tends to burn belts (based on comments here). I have not seen the same frequency of belt failures on finish mowers mentioned.

2) Quality of cut: On relatively short grass, the finish mower is probably best. On taller stuff and weeds, the flail chops finer. After a second cutting, is that an advantage? The flail can handle bigger weeds. But, once the big weeds are cut down to size, is that an advantage anymore?

3) Safety: No difference.

4) Uneven terrain: The finish mower is built to have a floating deck. The flail is firmly attached to the 3PH. However, accessory wheels are available for the flail to help with uneven terrain. Can the flail be modified and connected with the same type of floating attachment as the finish mower?

5) Speed of mowing: I got no quantitative information about that.

6) Parts: With Caroni, are you dependent on Agrisupply? With a finish mower from a local dealer and a national brand (e.g., LandPride), you have more options. Of course, if you go to a national brand of flail, then there is a significant price difference.

Conclusion: Still undecided. Is it a Jaguar vs. Cadillac comparison? I would really appreciate input from longterm users.

John

BTW: Spellcheck works on other forums I use, but not on this one. Is there a CP setting I have missed? My apologies in advance for misspellings.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have just read this thread for the first time. I must disagree pretty strongly with what Leonz has stated about the B and F rotors and their capabilities. I've used a TM1900B for the past three years in pasture mowing and bush hogging.

Number of knives is not very important unless you are finish cutting. Number of knives with brush is actually a disadvantage (less energy per knife) and more importantly the F rotor knives are mounted directly onto a shaft (bolt) while the B series knives are mounted to a clevis (shackle). The clevis allows the B knives to bounce back away from an obstruction (branch, root, rock) more efficiently than F series knives can and therefore is less likely to damage the blade. The B series knives are also much heavier and tougher than F series blades which is important in brush clearing.

Caroni clearly sells the F series as a finish mower. The B series is the rough cut. It is flat wrong to advocate the F series as more efficient in anything other than lawn mowing.

 

[IslandTractor]

4) Uneven terrain: The finish mower is built to have a floating deck. The flail is firmly attached to the 3PH. However, accessory wheels are available for the flail to help with uneven terrain. Can the flail be modified and connected with the same type of floating attachment as the finish mower?.

Wrong. The Caroni floats on the rear roller and is much less likely to scalp in uneven terrain than a RFM with wheels. The reason is that while both have "float" capability, the flail is shorter with blades closer to the rear roller and therefore it follows the terrain more closely.

I should note that it is possible to set up a flail so it does not float (ie is controlled by the 3PT arms) but that is generally a mistake. They are designed to be towed by the 3PT hitch and to ride on the rear roller. The purpose of the 3PT arms other than towing is simply to lift the flail when you are done mowing.

 

[IslandTractor]

Let's assume that a good, 72" (e.g, Caroni) flail mower and a good finsh mower (e.g., Land Pride) cost exactly the same. They do in my town. They both mow grass and are relatively safe compared to the single-blade rotary mower. Which would you chose?.

Easy. If I were mowing only a manicured lawn I'd choose the RFM or possibly a MMM or finish flail (Caroni TL) if manuverability with a RFM was an issue. For pastures, rough lawns and bush hog work I'd go with a "rough cut" flail like the Caroni TM1900B series.

 

[IslandTractor]

please be sure to purchase the spring disc type slip clutch PTO shaft for your tractor and mower as it is the first line of defense for your tractors drive train after the mowers V belts.

Edit: You have to run the engine at the proper high rpm to maintain the 540 RPM speed delivered to the rotor or you will plug up the mower and burn the belts as it is not cutting at a high rpm of 100 MPH or greater under the mowers hood.

Sorry but this is baloney. You do not need a slip clutch with a flail mower as the flail has belts. Belts slip and provide exactly the same protection to the drive shaft as a slip clutch.

You also don't need to run at PTO speed to get a good cut and you certainly don't plug up the mower or burn the belts when running at less than 540 PTO.

Somebody needs to check their facts or speak from personal experience rather than spreading inaccurate rumors.

 

[leonz]

what I should have said was you can plug up the mower when advancing too fast in heavy tall brush and I have always found the slip clutch on our flailmower to work very well if it became overloaded and stopped mowing with the lawn genie in brush.

You can call me fussy but I like the staggered lacing on our flailmower and its fine cut and as I mentioned before I mowed 5 acres of high turf with two gallons of gas and more fuel while mowing brush at a high rpm.

we disagree about engine speed for PTO use but thats all, as a hydro tractor is easier to run than a conventional which I also used for flail mowing with a 6foot JD flail and a JD 3010 gas shuttle shft with 8 foot brush and you have to wind up a gear tractor to an higher engine speed where a hydro uses fluid to move it.

As the rotor is running at its maximum rpm when at the 540 engine loading slicing all the brush and grass to very tiny pieces. with me its very thick sod and clover pasture which is very thick and you have to run wide open using a 16 HP briggs and a slip clutch and having the finish cut staggered rotor is an asset in my opinion which also keeps down a lot of weeds to near nothing which allows the clover to come back quickly.


the slip disc friction clutch is a must with gear tractors in my opinion simply because of the drive train involved and I have always erred on the conservative side when it comes to protecting a tractors drive train whether its a gear or hydro unit as the clutch is a last line of defense for not ripping belts also in my opinion if the rotor is stopped- cheap insurance for $200 or less I think. which is probably why our flail mower has lasted 30 years IMO

 

[IslandTractor]

I would repair it if it no longer rolls freely and take it to a welding shop to straighten it with a press.

Thats exactly what Iron horse did with his Cabe flail mower (Ithink it was his Cabe anyway) I think he backed into a concrete post dont remember exactly-whoopsie

The roller can function perfect well with dents and there is no reason to repair them any more than you need to repair dents in a bush hog deck. If the roller does not function at all or if it is "banana'd" or bent along the axis like Iron Horse did to his then that is another matter. If the roller causes the mower to rise and fall as it rolls on a flat tarmac surface you need to replace it. If it has a bunch of dents those really make no functional difference.

 

[Eagleview]

No , they don't roll real well when they look like this .

Two old Argon bottles will be my next new roller , thick walled and large diameter with a perfect taper on the ends . I will join them at one end and fit a thick shaft at each end too take the outboard Spherical bearings . Outboard to keep them out of the constant barrage of dirt and stones that shortens their lives .