Which models are the knock-offs?

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

Here you go, from an earlier post in this thread, that I suppose you were too busy not arguing with me to read:

In my opinion, a "knock-off" is taking something, reverse engineering it (i.e. take it apart and copy every component), and then producing the product.


Again, that would, in the durable goods categories, simply be illegal. You just can't do that without all sorts of patent infringement. So I'd have to say that your definition, as it relates to tractors, simply is impossible to attain a knock off and still operate the business within the laws of the United States unless the patents have expired, at which point your definition would be allowed, but would be impractical due to the fact that a company would be "knocking off" old technology. I submit that the reasonable definition of a "knock off" is far more appropriate to apply to durable goods like tractors.

As for your statement that I was too busy not argueing with you to read that, first I did read it, I just was not sure that the definition was actually a firm definition due to its blatant illegality, and second, the fact that I posted examples of other brands is not argueing. Why is it that any contrary examples or opinions are lumped into "arguements" when in fact, simply laying out examples is just simply laying out examples. Nothing more.


"As for the food co-packing issues, I am very familiar with them. My company distributes thousands of different consumer items to retail stores. We carry both the name brands as well as PL merchandise."
 
But can you tell which brand names are made in brand name factories and which ones are co-packed - that's the point of that. 

Why yes, often times we can, and no many times we can't. As we deal direct with the manufacturers, we often arrange freight directly from either they plant or their storage facilities. Due to many regulations imposed on us, for many product categories, we actually have to be able to reverse track a consumer food item from the retail store all the way back the supply chain to its point of origin. Your point is taken and it is understood. It is, however, basically irrelevant to the point of this discussion. Knowing which factory produced any given piece of elbow macaroni, saltine cracker or slice of cheese is not germaine to the topic, especially given that macaroni, crackers, cheese and 1000's of other generic items with no real design or functionality difference have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years.

Technology and machinery are somewhat different. While Hart-Parr may have made the first practical steam tractor 100+ years ago, and while Henry Ford made the first practical automobile nearly that long ago, the differentiating points are the innovations that have taken place since those times. Much of that innovation was based on copy and improvement, much on brand new design.

Again, please don't confuse the facts I am laying out with argueing. I am simply laying out some of the history here and some of the differences in product laws and how they apply to food versus mechanical items.

Dargo · Mar 18, 2005

Ever been into a Harbor Freight store? Holy cow! (Shh, don't tell I went into one again after I swore I wouldn't after one of their junk spring compressors broke and nearly decapitated me.) Talk about "knock-offs"!!

I went in there to make took kits for my RTV and Rhino. I wanted basically "disposable" tools that I could just leave in a dark field if need be without worrying about the expense. Anyway, there seems to be a knock-off of most every brand tool I know of. And, the "lifetime" warranty on their Pittsburgh (or is it Pittsboro?) tools, well, let's just say it isn't exactly what they say. I brought in a 19mm wrench that is open on one end and boxed on the other. Half of the "open" end of the wrench broke off the first time I used it.

Guess what?! No replacement! Even after I provided a receipt from when I bought it (not necessary with Craftsman) they told me that "abuse" is not covered. What the frick!? When is using a wrench considered abusing it?? They told me that I'm a big strong guy and I simply used the wrench in excess of the limits of it's design. By using it to remove a bolt?! Aaauggh! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

My only point is that I am cautious with some "knock-offs" because there sometimes is lesser quality than the original from which it is designed. Not always, but sometimes. You might say that I bought "cheap" tools, so that's what I deserved. If so, be careful. I believe you'll offend some very rabid people if you tell them that about a tractor that they bought that was sold with a much lower initial cost than one that looked "just like it", but cost much more. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

My point? Heck, I don't know. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif It's just that with a "name brand" product, you pay more upfront, but there generally isn't as much of a concern of the quality and support behind what you purchased. Besides, I don't mind paying a "fair" amount for the R&D expenses incurred to develop a product and to have some comfort in believing that I won't have another spring compressor break while in my lap with a compressed spring in it. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif But, on the other side of the coin, when is it prudent to buy a similar product that is just as good and save your money??

My answer? Research it online. I'll admit that after being lied to by the Kioti dealer, I had Kioti pegged as a cheap counterfit knock-off. After reading this site, I now believe that Kioti is a decent tractor company that just happens to have a marketing policy that I don't agree with. As I said before, I'm very happy to see them make their own style and designs now. As far as Pittsburgh tools, sorry, but they are junk! Besides the broken wrench, I have a box full of broken impact sockets, broken box end wrenches, and twisted screwdrivers from them. Junk. One use (maybe) disposable tools.

dpl96 · Mar 18, 2005

"Knock off" aside, having another quality brand of tractors such as Kioti in the market forces the others to spend more on R&D and sharpen their pencils on retail costs. That is always good for us working folks who are trying to get the best bang for our hard earned dollars. Heck look at the major auto makers. You have to admit that at times it's difficult to tell one brand from another anymore.......BUT....... It has forced the auto makers to toe the line on costs.
At this point in time, no matter how it may have started, Kioti is not a Kubota, NH is not a Deere and Jinma is - well it is a market share all it's own. My opinion, and that's all it is after all is said and done, I like the ability choose from several different quality tractor manufactures.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"any contrary examples or opinions are lumped into "arguements"" If it is contrary opinions/examples/etc., then what else do you call it? Debate? Alternative opinion discussion? Agrument? If it is two or more contrasting items, its one of those. I simply choose the word argument.

I never said making a knock-off was legal - don't know where you thought that I did. Again, that's kind of the point. If the item is differnt enough that it is not infringing on patent/copyright stuff, then it is not a knock-off, it is competition.

"Knowing which factory produced any given piece of elbow macaroni, saltine cracker or slice of cheese is not germaine to the topic, especially given that macaroni, crackers, cheese and 1000's of other generic items with no real design or functionality difference have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years." Dude - are sure you're even in the food industry? There are a myriad of changes made on an ongoing basis in practically every facet on the food market. If you think that todays saltines, macaroni, cheese, etc. are the same as they were even 5 years ago, this merely demonstrates that you might need to devote some of the time you spend posting about tractors to the research of the food industry before you make such a ridiculous statment. Food manufacturing is similar to durable goods competition - there are multiple manufacturers, multiple tiers of products, research and development, product/packaging/equipment changes and innovation. Before you make such a blanket statment, please do some background work to back up your alleged facts.

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

rtimgray, since you are now clearly defining "knock-off" as an illegal act, then you are obviously correct, there are no known knock offs by your very rigid definition.

Individuals with a more open, or perhaps a more common interpretation of the term "knock off" would have some reason to disagree. Civil discussion can take place without arguement, therefore I won't follow up with any comment on your insult toward me.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"Civil discussion can take place without arguement, therefore I won't follow up with any comment on your insult toward me."

Hey man, civil discussion or argument - it all types out the same. I was not intended an insult; it just seems that since you are a distributor of food products, you do not have the correct perspective on the actual manufacturing practices involved the products you distribute. If you take my accusation of your lack of knowledge as an insult and not merely a contrasting opinion (like your contrasting opinion about what defines a knock-off), then let's look back at what you told me earlier:

"Why is it that any contrary examples or opinions are lumped into "arguements" when in fact, simply laying out examples is just simply laying out examples. Nothing more" I'm just laying out examples - and now you feel insulted. Too bad your skin isn't thicker.

gregL · Mar 18, 2005

The key to using civil discussion to resolve conflict, in essence to argue, is for the participants to argue their points without becoming argumentative, defensive or insulting.
I have watched this string since its inception, starting with original string that went down in fiery rhetoric and was abolished. Nothing posted by Mr. Shurka has been insulting or defensive; although the whole thing has indeed been quite entertaining. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

I agree with you. I haven't been insulted by anything Bob said. I do prefer to use the term competitive to knock-off (because I think they are two different things) and I use the term argue and discuss, at least on these forums, more or less interchangably.

Bob always presents his points in good fashion and good examples and I have no issue with that. He's put in tons of time and thousands of posts and has been pretty cordial in all of them that I've seen. It's just that on the particular subject of the development of food products, he's just wrong and apparently ignorant, because I'm sure if he knew the facts he wouldn't have said what he said. It's too bad Bob is insulted; he should feel enlightened. However, he is not the first to feel that way and will likely not be the last.

Golfgar4 · Mar 18, 2005

( civil discussion or argument - it all types out the same. )

I would tend to disagree with this statement. Civil discussions will involve the amicable exchange of information/ideas/opinions, with each party involved in the discussion respecting each other's opinions.

Arguments generally involve at least one participant trying to force feed his/her opinions onto the other participants, and when that does not go down well, then things begin to deteriorate.

But there's one other BIG difference between civil discussions and arguments here on TBN. Civil discussions will be left alone, whereas arguments will generally get closed down.

This thread has offered some very interesting ideas and opinions. I see a lot of restraint on ALL of the participant's parts. It would be a shame if it needed to be closed because someone lost sight of that.