Which to buy

[tractorhill]

Just note, that Mark.R is lifting directly below the pivot point and very close to the machine. If you put that bale on a spear, it would be a huge load for the tractor. Just like lifting anything yourself, the further away it is from the machine the less lift capacity is will have.. it drops fast, a good 30% for every 18". In round numbers, a CK20 has a published lift capacity over just over 1000lbs at the pins, about 650 in the bucket, and probably around 200lbs 3-4 feet in front of the loader where a bale would be centered. Don't think that it will lift the 1000+lbs that it says in the brochure.

I think this is misleading, Yes you loose alot when out in front but remember when the whole load is not out front. I have customs using 25hp and lifting bales fine. also roll back pays abig part. Look like You like to down Kioti any time you get a chance but I don,t think you have a horse in this race

 

[canoetrpr]

So the question is, will the DK40/45 and KL401 loader lift that 1200lb bale on a spear?

Without a doubt.

 

[IslandTractor]

Just note, that Mark.R is lifting directly below the pivot point and very close to the machine. If you put that bale on a spear, it would be a huge load for the tractor. Just like lifting anything yourself, the further away it is from the machine the less lift capacity is will have.. it drops fast, a good 30% for every 18". In round numbers, a CK20 has a published lift capacity over just over 1000lbs at the pins, about 650 in the bucket, and probably around 200lbs 3-4 feet in front of the loader where a bale would be centered. Don't think that it will lift the 1000+lbs that it says in the brochure.

By the same reasoning Neil a BX would not be able to lift much more than a feather 3 feet from the bucket. Your principles are correct but the numbers are a bit out of whack. The KL120 is rated 1070lbs at pivot pins so a conservative estimate of mid bucket would be about 750+. Here is a photo of a CK20 lifting brush that must weigh over 300lbs about six feet in front of the bucket. That is with a 100+lb QA adapter and a 280lb grapple. The rear end was light despite loaded tires and a suspended 450lb bush hog. Why don't you post a photo of a B series lifting something similar?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Why don't you post a photo of a B series lifting something similar?

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, nor did I mention any other models... just pointing out the simple laws of physics that apply to lifting a load. Unless Kioti invented an anti-grav device for their loaders they'll be following the same simple laws of lifting a load anyone else. The reterick about a seemly limitless lift capacity of a given tractor is reckless and may very well lead someone to buying a tractor thats too small for their use.

 

[IslandTractor]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, nor did I mention any other models... just pointing out the simple laws of physics that apply to lifting a load. Unless Kioti invented an anti-grav device for their loaders they'll be following the same simple laws of lifting a load anyone else. The reterick about a seemly limitless lift capacity of a given tractor is reckless and may very well lead someone to buying a tractor thats too small for their use.

Rhetoric? I showed a photo of the loader in actual use. Do you think I have a 4x4 beam hidden in there supporting the grapple?

I acknowledged that the principles you were expousing were correct but that your estimate that a CK20 would only lift 200 lbs 3-4 feet in front of the loader was a joke. I provided photographic evidence to bolster my point. How is that "reckless"?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

If a machines lift capacity drops at least 30% between the pins and bucket center (about 18") don't you think its very safe to say that at 3ft from the pins the lift would be 60% lower, and at 4.5ft 90% lower. Thats assuming its a linear drop and that the entire load is at that singular point. If the load is sitting closer to the pins, as is the case in the picturs that are posted, then its going to be alot higher. As a rule, you typicaly want to over estimate the amount of lift you need by a good 30% if your using forks or a spear because of where the load sits. Its simple figures that will hold true of any machine, I'm not sure what the big deal is?

 

[IslandTractor]

If a machines lift capacity drops at least 30% between the pins and bucket center (about 18") don't you think its very safe to say that at 3ft from the pins the lift would be 60% lower, and at 4.5ft 90% lower. Thats assuming its a linear drop and that the entire load is at that singular point. If the load is sitting closer to the pins, as is the case in the picturs that are posted, then its going to be alot higher. As a rule, you typicaly want to over estimate the amount of lift you need by a good 30% if your using forks or a spear because of where the load sits. Its simple figures that will hold true of any machine, I'm not sure what the big deal is?

I don't think we are disagreeing on principle, just specifics. Most people using a loader try to get the load close to the "pins". Obviously most loads are not single points of weight and are therefore spread out as in the example photo I posted where the load is pretty evenly distributed from very close to the pins all the way to a point approximately six to eight feet away (look at the size of the shadow). The average load would therefore be about 4 feet from the pivot pins given the space taken by QA adapter and grapple back. The load was heavy enough to cause the rear of the tractor to be light despite loaded tires and a bush hog. I don't know the exact weight of the load but on reflection it must have been pretty close to the weight of bush hog (450lbs) given the effect on tractor balance point. By your calculus, at 4.5 feet from pivot pins the loader should only lift 10% of rated pivot pin capacity which would be 107lbs. Even at three feet your estimate would be 40% of rated load or about 420lbs. That just doesn't fit with the evidence here.

Yes, the longer the distance from the pins the less weight you can lift. I'm not a mechanical engineer or physicist and don't know the exact calculations. But your suggestion that a CK20 cannot lift more than 107lbs four feet from the pivot pins just doen't fit the evidence. Your experience with Kubota loaders may be biasing your world view.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Your experience with Kubota loaders may be biasing your world view.

BAH! I'll have a good comeback for that someday!

 

[HODAK]

I kind of have to side with most of Messick's comments on this one.... maybe the numbers are off a bit, but the commom sense aspect that the capacity is greatly reduced as you get further from the pivot pins should be easy to understand. He did not mention another brand either. Didn't this thread start with comments on what was needed to move heavier items like round bales? CK30 or CK20 might be able to move them, but I wouldn't want to do this on a regular basis. 3PH to move bales would be an option, but it would be tough to stack them. I may as well mention that the old style KL120's and 130's may need further inspection after moving those heavy bales - lots of stress at that famous area........ I'm so glad I don't have to monitor that area anymore. One last note - it's easy to throw numbers around when estimating the weight of things when, in fact, the real numbers may surprise you.

 

[jimmyj]

Thanks everyone.

I get the whole physics thing. My motto has always been sort of "if in any real doubt, don't do it." Anyhow, details aside, when it comes time to buy I will take 2 of my bales with me to the dealer and do a bale test on the 3ph and the loader. The Kioti guy near me also rents, so I am thinking that a couple of bucks in the spring to rent a machine for the weekend would be the best test drive money could buy.

I think the photo by mark.r is a perfect example of the sort of improvisation that all people with an FEL will do from time to time. No matter how far we plan, we encounter crazy new challenges that we feel obliged to overcome. Hence, a wee bit larger is always probably smart. Last year a buddy of mine was bringing a HUGE boulder home on the sideroad in the bucket of a backhoe. Well, he started down the hill and the weight came off the back wheels and he skidded down the s-bend about 60 feet before he dropped the bucket to slow the thing down. Nobody wants to see that happen again.

P.S. I like the redneck bumper a lot. I am hoping to build a gas powered picnic table next year and maybe I should put a small square on the front as a bumper!!!