Why not more alcohol fuel?

TresCrows · May 25, 2004

You can make numbers say what you want, politicians do it all the time. It realy is a poor fuel, hard on seals and rubber, lower MPG, lower performance overall and in the real world most of the energy imput to make the grain fuel is from petroleum since those tractors are not running on solar power but are running on diesel as are the plants that make the grain fuel from electricity generated mostly by petroleum but that is a small thing.
Another prediction, grain fuels will contribute an important part of our fuel --about 10 percent give or take----but they will be blended with petroleum which means we are still down a creek without a paddle. Row, row your SUV/truck/jumbo sized vehicle, merrily, merrily down the highway /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.
Now, if we could use nuke power--breeders--or when they get fusion going---everything changes. The energy ratios go out the window and ethanol and oil and hydrogen fuels would all benefit because the nuke power could produce our electricity, provide power for some of the refining and distilling processes and manufacturing processes. There are ways out of our predicament but we just don't like any of them, some for good reasons, some for hysterical reasons. J

gsganzer · May 25, 2004

Now, if we could use nuke power--breeders--or when they get fusion going---everything changes. The energy ratios go out the window and ethanol and oil and hydrogen fuels would all benefit because the nuke power could produce our electricity, provide power for some of the refining and distilling processes and manufacturing processes. There are ways out of our predicament but we just don't like any of them, some for good reasons, some for hysterical reasons.

I read an article a while back that some of the environmental groups are beginning to get on the nuclear bandwagon for the reasons you stated. What's the point of hydrogen cars if you have to burn fossil fuels to make the electricity required to zap water for hydrogen production? That one incident at Three Mile Island had the same impact on the U.S. nuclear industry as did GM's first diesel on the diesel engine market. The new nuclear plants don't even resemble the older plants. Now if the government can only cut the beauracratic bull when it comes to building them. Why does the industry have to go through an entire public hearing to turn one on, when they went through the same entire process to build it in the first place? Doesn't that seem redundant? Meanwhile, the utility owner pays on a high interest construction loan waiting on the final approval, which can take years.

TresCrows · May 26, 2004

This whole thing is amazing, just consider that our refinery capacity is currently operating at close to 100 percent. There have been no new ones built in this country since the mid 80's I think. why--EPA, costs, taxes, not in my backyard etc. If there is a problem at one of those refineries that puts it off line--dudes /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif--we will see $5.00 gasoline in the blink of an eye. Our margins are to thin, our fuel supply line to thin, our refinery complex over capacity and aging and our government clueless as is the general population. Things could get really bad before they get better but I am optimistic all will work out. I would not run out just yet and trade my truck/SUV that is paid for in for a small car that you have payments on and does not satisfy your needs. I see longer range fuel stabilizing somewhere between 1.80 and 2.50. I think that would be a sustainable price range for another long period as we have seen over the past decade fuel stable between 1.20 and 1.80. J

Egon · May 26, 2004

Trescrows:

Very sage comments.

Egon

MikePA · May 26, 2004

If sustained higher oil prices will eventually cause exploration in US oil fields that heretofore were not economically feasible, or make other fuels economically feasible, I am all for it.

The oil producing nations have to walk a fine line on the price of oil. Too high, and alternative fuels begin to make economic sense and they lose revenue.

TiminMN · May 26, 2004

( in the real world most of the energy imput to make the grain fuel is from petroleum since those tractors are not running on solar power but are running on diesel )
I can grow an acre of corn with 5 gallons of diesel, the corn form that acre will make over 300 gallons of ethanol. If you look at the PFD file link form the page you will see most of the energy used in corn production is for fertilizer. The tractor may not be solar powered but for the most part the corn is. Ethanol is a way we can take convert solar energy to more usable form.

TresCrows · May 26, 2004

( If sustained higher oil prices will eventually cause exploration in US oil fields that heretofore were not economically feasible, or make other fuels economically feasible, I am all for it.

The oil producing nations have to walk a fine line on the price of oil. Too high, and alternative fuels begin to make economic sense and they lose revenue. )

Yes, exactly, well put. J

MossRoad · May 27, 2004

There are no conspiericies and there is no free ride. 

Well, that certainly takes all the fun out of the discussion! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TresCrows · May 27, 2004

This is true /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif but I think all this conspiracy and "they" talk and they are out to get us and the UN is going to invade the USA (heck the US is the UN in the military sense) and all those "Art Bell" the world is going to end tomorrow talk shows can affect a persons mental health /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Consider that I am here to just help you all through this diffucult period /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif and dispel urban myths, pseudo science, popular science and "they" myths with speedy dispatch /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif J

MossRoad · May 28, 2004

Well, I certainly appreciate it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif