why this is not working ??

[Raul-02]

What power beyond is.....is also called "high pressure carry-over".....so perhaps that is a more accurate description.

I ain't no Hydraulics mavin, but the latter expression sounds more - - how shall I say it - - vocational, it sounds more like what one might expect to hear from a vocational expert e.g. a tradesman or an engineer.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Actually you have several options.

What power beyond is.....is also called "high pressure carry-over".....so perhaps that is a more accurate description.

Valves on an open center tractor such as yours and most are all in series. So there is only ever ONE power beyond.

So when designing a system with multiple valves.....all the valves have 3 hoses. Pressure in, Power beyond (that goes to the pressure in of the next valve in the series), and a tank return.

The tank return ONLY flows oil when using the valve. So like when raising or lowering the loader.....the oil that is expelled out of the cylinders other port.....returns back through the tank passage and returns to the transmission sump of the tractor rather than being forced through all the downstream valves....

99.9% of all manual valves that I have seen are NOT rated for pressure on the tank port....but 99% of all electric valves I have see ARE rated for pressure.

Since you CANNOT make the 3rd function valve the LAST valve in the system.....because the last valve is the 3PH and usually internal to the tractor and internal passages.....your 3rd function IF you insist on a manual valve MUST be a power beyond capable valve with appropriate PB cartridge/plug.

So basically what you have will NOT work. So starting over.....here are your options:
1. Yes you can get a single 3-spool valve that replaces your existing loader valve and has the 3rd function built in. This is probably the most expensive option
2. You can get a single spool valve as you have already done.....only this time, get one that has power beyond and is tandem center
3. You can get an electric 3rd function valve.....as those dont normally need a PB as mentioned. But you have to supply it 12v through a button or rocker switch added to your joystick
4. You can go the diverter route. A diverter doesnt change any of the 3 hoses connecting your loader valve how it was originally installed. Rather you pick either curl/dump function or the lift/lower function and tie into them. Still need the 12v and a button. But it uses your existing loader valve to control the grapple by diverting one of the functions whenever button is pushed.

And I guess a 5th option would be long hoses going from rear remotes IF your tractor has rear remotes and IF the control for those remotes is ergonomically handy and in close proximity to the loader joystick

lets say I go with option 2 how would I hook that up ? I take the power beyond off my tractor valve use that as my IN for the new valve take the out and T off my tank return and feed the 3PH with the power beyond of the new valve ?

 

[LD1]

The new valve will also have three connection ports not counting the ones going to the cylinder (work ports) just like the loader valve.

It will have a p, pb, and t.

If you want the loader valve first.....hook it back up exactly how it was.

Now the ONLY hose to remove is the PB hose. That is currently feeding the 3ph....wherever that may be on your particular machine.

Go from the PB of the loader valve to your NEW valves P port. Now you have supply....

Go from the PB of the new valve to the 3ph. Wherever the old PB off the loader went.

Now you have a complete system BUT.....you still need to add a tank line for the new valve so when using the grapple the oil coming back from the cylinder can return to tank. So from the T port of the new valve....return to tank somewhere.

The Tank lines are the ONLY lines you can TEE on an open center hydraulic system. So follow the hose coming off of the T port of the loader valve. Remove a fitting wherever convenient and replace with a tee.


You need ALL THREE houses hooked up to a manual valve just like the loader.

Let me know if that makes sense

 

[Rockbadchild]

The new valve will also have three connection ports not counting the ones going to the cylinder (work ports) just like the loader valve.

It will have a p, pb, and t.

If you want the loader valve first.....hook it back up exactly how it was.

Now the ONLY hose to remove is the PB hose. That is currently feeding the 3ph....wherever that may be on your particular machine.

Go from the PB of the loader valve to your NEW valves P port. Now you have supply....

Go from the PB of the new valve to the 3ph. Wherever the old PB off the loader went.

Now you have a complete system BUT.....you still need to add a tank line for the new valve so when using the grapple the oil coming back from the cylinder can return to tank. So from the T port of the new valve....return to tank somewhere.

The Tank lines are the ONLY lines you can TEE on an open center hydraulic system. So follow the hose coming off of the T port of the loader valve. Remove a fitting wherever convenient and replace with a tee.


You need ALL THREE houses hooked up to a manual valve just like the loader.

Let me know if that makes sense

ok yes that's how I saw it as well, just did a poor job explaining it ... yes it make sense...now why do I need a tandem center ? that keep the pressure in the grappler line when I would release the function ?

 

[LD1]

ok yes that's how I saw it as well, just did a poor job explaining it ... yes it make sense...now why do I need a tandem center ? that keep the pressure in the grappler line when I would release the function ?

This shows the actual valve diagram you should see when ordering a valve....and explains the difference between open center and tandem center valves. Intro to Directional Control Valves.

A and B are the work ports. And when the valve is centered (not being used), if you want the cylinders to stay where they are, you need A and B ports blocked off....IE: tandem center. A true open center opens them ports to tank and the cylinders are not held by the valve.

IF you look at the diagram/manual for the valve you sent me in a PM, It does show it being tandem center and power beyond capable. The diagram for the single spool valve is on the first page. and further down the page they show the PB adapter you need to get as well. It will thread into one of the tank ports.

So on the diagram.....Which I know is hard to follow if you dont understand hydraulic schematics.....shows pressure coming in and going straight out the T2 port which is PB. ANd the A and B ports are blocked off in neutral which is what you want. When the valve shifts either direction....PB flow is cut off.....and P goes to either work port A or B.....and the work port that pressure is not going to is free to return to tank through T port and NOT the T port which would be PB if the plug is installed

https://www.princessauto.com/file/general/8669798_manualnb_00_01_v01_manuel_enfr.pdf

So looking at that diagram.....This is what it looks like

And in neutral.....Red is pressure passing through to PB. Notice the A and B ports are blocked so the oil in the cylinders cannot excape

When shifted (you have to visualize square 1 or 2 shifting into place of cube 0)....the flow would look like:
Notice how work port A is now receiving pressure to move the cylinder, while port B is open to return the oil discharged from the cylinder back to tank, and PB flow is cut off.

So when looking for a valve.....first and foremost you want one that is PB adaptable.
Second is you want to see that A and B port is isolated when in neutral like this:

And NOT one that is open to allow A and B to return to tank like this, which I suspect you may have.

The true open center valves are commonly used for hydraulic motors. Dont want to muddy the waters of your understanding of what you need, but when a valve is opened and a hydraulic motor is spinning.....if you had a tandem center valve....as soon as you let the valve return to neutral, you block off the flow of oil at the work ports A and B. This means that whatever the motor was spinning....has to stop IMMEDIATLY. Some things just cant do that.....think about the inertia of a rotary cutter on the front of a skidloader for example. The inertia of the cutter still trying to spin could cause a huge pressure spike and blow hoses. So true open center which is sometimes called "motor spools" allow it to spin down slowly. Thats not the only way to make that happen, and not the only use for a true open center valve....but just one example to help you inderstand.

I honestly dont know what logsplitter valves are. Whether they are tandem or open center doesnt really matter because they arent designed to hold a load like a loader.....and being a horizontal cylinder.....gravity isnt making it move on its own when in neutral.

Id still like to see a diagram or know just what valve you purchased initially to appease my curiosity. But at the end of the day.....get a PB capable tandem center valve (even if they dont use the term "tandem" just look at the diagram). ANd plumb it as I mentioned and you should be all set

 

[Rockbadchild]

This shows the actual valve diagram you should see when ordering a valve....and explains the difference between open center and tandem center valves. Intro to Directional Control Valves.

A and B are the work ports. And when the valve is centered (not being used), if you want the cylinders to stay where they are, you need A and B ports blocked off....IE: tandem center. A true open center opens them ports to tank and the cylinders are not held by the valve.

IF you look at the diagram/manual for the valve you sent me in a PM, It does show it being tandem center and power beyond capable. The diagram for the single spool valve is on the first page. and further down the page they show the PB adapter you need to get as well. It will thread into one of the tank ports.

So on the diagram.....Which I know is hard to follow if you dont understand hydraulic schematics.....shows pressure coming in and going straight out the T2 port which is PB. ANd the A and B ports are blocked off in neutral which is what you want. When the valve shifts either direction....PB flow is cut off.....and P goes to either work port A or B.....and the work port that pressure is not going to is free to return to tank through T port and NOT the T port which would be PB if the plug is installed

https://www.princessauto.com/file/general/8669798_manualnb_00_01_v01_manuel_enfr.pdf

So looking at that diagram.....This is what it looks like
View attachment 759411
And in neutral.....Red is pressure passing through to PB. Notice the A and B ports are blocked so the oil in the cylinders cannot excape
View attachment 759412
When shifted (you have to visualize square 1 or 2 shifting into place of cube 0)....the flow would look like:
Notice how work port A is now receiving pressure to move the cylinder, while port B is open to return the oil discharged from the cylinder back to tank, and PB flow is cut off.

View attachment 759416
So when looking for a valve.....first and foremost you want one that is PB adaptable.
Second is you want to see that A and B port is isolated when in neutral like this:
View attachment 759417
And NOT one that is open to allow A and B to return to tank like this, which I suspect you may have.
View attachment 759418
The true open center valves are commonly used for hydraulic motors. Dont want to muddy the waters of your understanding of what you need, but when a valve is opened and a hydraulic motor is spinning.....if you had a tandem center valve....as soon as you let the valve return to neutral, you block off the flow of oil at the work ports A and B. This means that whatever the motor was spinning....has to stop IMMEDIATLY. Some things just cant do that.....think about the inertia of a rotary cutter on the front of a skidloader for example. The inertia of the cutter still trying to spin could cause a huge pressure spike and blow hoses. So true open center which is sometimes called "motor spools" allow it to spin down slowly. Thats not the only way to make that happen, and not the only use for a true open center valve....but just one example to help you inderstand.

I honestly dont know what logsplitter valves are. Whether they are tandem or open center doesnt really matter because they arent designed to hold a load like a loader.....and being a horizontal cylinder.....gravity isnt making it move on its own when in neutral.

Id still like to see a diagram or know just what valve you purchased initially to appease my curiosity. But at the end of the day.....get a PB capable tandem center valve (even if they dont use the term "tandem" just look at the diagram). ANd plumb it as I mentioned and you should be all set

really good explanation thank a million ...

that's the one I previously ordered,

https://www.princessauto.com/file/general/8457442_manualhb_00_01_v01_manuel_enfr.pdf

 

[LD1]

really good explanation thank a million ...

that's the one I previously ordered,

https://www.princessauto.com/file/general/8457442_manualhb_00_01_v01_manuel_enfr.pdf

Of course they don't give a hydraulic diagram of the valve. So I can only speculate at this time that either it's not tandem center, or the pressure kickout is causing you issues....or just the sheer back pressure on the tank port.

Water under the bridge now.....cause it ain't gonna work without PB.

But I think you're on the right track now

 

[Rockbadchild]

it’s working now … thank again

 

[LD1]

New valve, Tandem center, and power beyond?

 

[Rockbadchild]

New valve, Tandem center, and power beyond?

yup