Price Check Wild west

[steveinyuma]

I'm posting to this forum because of all the price/SCUT/CUT activity here recently. First, lots of other threads regarding this, so I DON"T CARE what you call what I am looking for, so please don't bring it up here.
I have posted before so you may have read about my not being able to sit on a real tractor here in Arizona. It took a year and several states, and I still couldn't do some (new Kioti for one). It also appears some prices are $1000 and more over when I checked last spring.
I have been looking for 22-25 hp, 4wd, TLB. Width under 52" (storage and access issues), great reliability (NO dealers within 60 miles). No lawn, might run rear mower or chipper someday. Mostly want to lift and carry, keep up with brush, maintain 300' of hilly road and assorted 4' trails through 4.5 acres and maybe put in a few 6" drainage pipes.
Initially wanted to stay under $20000 cost, but that's tough this year. Lots of you have multiple competitive dealers to choose from. Arizona? Not so much. Large dealer locations far apart (seem to agree on set prices) and some local guys.
10 to 15% discounts are pretty much a dream here. MSRP and factory promos are it in MOST cases. I liked features of Mahindra Max25, Massey GC Series, Kubota BX and Deere 1026R. Sales guys all fine, dealers seem okay. I thought price would help to be my deciding factor, but
Here's what I have, and I'm just looking for comments, no bashing. These are real AZ prices from dealers who know I am serious.
All equipped with approx. 4' loader, backhoe w/12" bucket, rear tires loaded, delivery (70 to over 100 miles) and taxes, no mower or other implements (this is a CASH OTD price, I have been making payments to myself for years!).

JD 1026R $21000 ($21250 after May 31)
Kubota BX25 $20282
Massey GC2410 (10" bucket) $20,360
Mahindra Max22 $19924 (Not delivered)
Mahindra Max25 $20880 (Not delivered)
Kioti CS 2410(but doesn't have one!) $21681 (would never buy without seeing)

Just wondering, as prices seem better elsewhere (maybe not?). Notice the approximately $1000 spread between all except the invisible Kioti? It appears that pricing alone will not be that much help to me in making my decision. As for feel, the ones I tried ALL feel great! This is tough!
Sorry if the post is too long, just curious (and garrulous), especially for comments from any other western folks.

 

[steveinyuma]

I intended to post to the Mahindra buying/pricing forum! Sorry, don't know how to change it. Help put it where it should be?
Thanks

 

[bcp]

All else being equal, I think I would go with the dealer quickest to get to, when you need some little factory-only part.

It look like Wickenburg to NE Phoenix area would be quickest, and on toward Phoenix as an alternative if you can't get it closer. Going the other way, if you can't get what you want in the Prescott area, there isn't much more in that direction.

Bruce

 

[Gittyup]

In Kioti, I'd look at the CK20. The CS2410 is the same as a New Holland, I believe. Do a search here for that model. It's definitely smaller that the CK20. The CK20 should fit your dimensions and is way more tractor than some of the others you are considering. Price should be in-line with the others.

Did you consider the Bobcat CT122? It's the same as CK20 with a different loader. What about TYM T233? That's nice rig.

Have you considered an out of state dealer? You might save a lot, even with shipping. I know my dealer in PA said he has sold into AZ before.

If I had to pick from the ones you've listed, I'd go with the MAX25.

 

[steveinyuma]

Gittyup,
I considered the other Kioti. The dealer I contacted just quit responding to my emails. I don't think I insulted him as I he did send me the quote on the CS2410. Said he would get back to me on the CK20, but never did after several emails. LS Dealer never responded to email at all. I know, some dealers are not internet oriented, but if you're selling 2012 tractors, you need to use 2012 methods or I mistrust your continuing dealer durability. Smallest TYM is a little wider than I want and I'm just a little leery of both TYM and LS. The quote I got for the Bobcat 122 I didn't include above. It was $27344 with tax, clearly way out of line with the rest. I actually looked at one at the the same Deere (Also Bobcat) dealer and though it would be a contender, I could no way see that value. The Max 25 seems good, but the closeness in price to a 1026r with quick attach loader makes me hesitate. As for out of state, I really hate to do that. I see some really great dealers here on TBN, but shipping, and YES, good old Arizona charges a 6.6% use tax if you want to be legal, make too much of a difference.
Again, I'm not just purely price shopping, not going to quibble over 3 or 5 hundred dollars, just wanting good value on something I hope to buy only once and trying to understand the whole scut/cut/dealer scenario before I commit. Maybe I'm just being too cautious, but that's how got $$ to spend on a tractor in the first place!
BCP,
These are my best quotes. Only Massey is a Phoenix dealer, didn't explain $1800 price increase since last May, others from Flagstaff, Kingman, Cottonwood. Other Phoenix area dealers are related to each other and talked to each other about the quote (just slightly higher than Flag) NO Prescott dealers unless you want a Caterpillar. All would be the better part of a day trip and none would service my tractor on site or transport without fees. Hence my desire for an internet savvy dealer and extreme reliability. I don't want to have to buy a truck and trailer since the tractor hopefully won't be going anywhere else but here. My late Simplicity 4041 was 40 years old. I expect what I buy to outlast a guy eligible for Social Security.
Thanks for input.

 

[TractorTidy]

As far as internet inquiries, just because a dealer doesn't respond to a request, don't throw him out. Call him. Today, many people think the dealer should do everything and they just type on the computer. Dealers are busy to, w/ many customers to take care of, not just you, especially this time of year. Most internet inquiries are nothing more than price shopping and pedaling the cheapest price to their local dealer, so to speak. Internet inquiries don't yield the results walk-ins and phone calls do unless it is actually an e-commerce sight like for parts. Those are actual buyers. So if you are really interested in the brand this dealer has, call him. It is 2012, but 98% of the customers still come in the door or call.

Order of priority, walk-ins first, phone second and internet third. Internet inquirires may get a response but it could be delayed.

 

[steveinyuma]

Tractortidy,
I understand your view , but most manufacturers sponsor a site with a method to reach the dealer that STARTS with email. I agree that there's lots of price shopping, (but it is the FIRST thing anyone, including walk-ins wants to know). Why walk in (especially when your nearest dealer is near 2 hours away) if your first inquiry, coming from a manufacturer or dealer sponsored site, is ignored? Otherwise, why is the dealer's email, not just his/her phone number, listed or linked? Give some response with generic numbers and invite coming in with possibilities of trying, discussing price, and personal service. Or designate an employee to do it if you're not internet savvy (Very understandable!) Delayed response is fine. I have had experience with NO response.
Why would answering an email at your convenience take any longer than talking on the phone now, when someone may be in front of you and really should come first.
That said, there won't be anyone there standing in front of you if you don't have products, only brochures. Why bother? You can download pictures, maybe even hear them run but can't work the controls and sit in the seat... My point is that you can't expect to make virtual sales with brochures, but not take virtual requests with email. Ignoring ANY request when someone is paying for a website to get that request to you doesn't seem all that professional. I bet a large part of the 98% did at least some pricing and feature research elsewhere before they bothered to walk in.
I would rather (and will) deal with final decision making with a real person at a real dealership. A chance to sit on a product and interact with that dealership (by all means available) is important to me.

 

[kiotiken]

Tractortidy,
I understand your view , but most manufacturers sponsor a site with a method to reach the dealer that STARTS with email. I agree that there's lots of price shopping, (but it is the FIRST thing anyone, including walk-ins wants to know). Why walk in (especially when your nearest dealer is near 2 hours away) if your first inquiry, coming from a manufacturer or dealer sponsored site, is ignored? Otherwise, why is the dealer's email, not just his/her phone number, listed or linked? Give some response with generic numbers and invite coming in with possibilities of trying, discussing price, and personal service. Or designate an employee to do it if you're not internet savvy (Very understandable!) Delayed response is fine. I have had experience with NO response.
Why would answering an email at your convenience take any longer than talking on the phone now, when someone may be in front of you and really should come first.
That said, there won't be anyone there standing in front of you if you don't have products, only brochures. Why bother? You can download pictures, maybe even hear them run but can't work the controls and sit in the seat... My point is that you can't expect to make virtual sales with brochures, but not take virtual requests with email. Ignoring ANY request when someone is paying for a website to get that request to you doesn't seem all that professional. I bet a large part of the 98% did at least some pricing and feature research elsewhere before they bothered to walk in.
I would rather (and will) deal with final decision making with a real person at a real dealership. A chance to sit on a product and interact with that dealership (by all means available) is important to me.

I agree with all your points.

I would say this change in mind set will take time, but it is inevitable. The responses I get from my dealer (who I've now bought 2 new tractors and a box blade from) are very short fragmented answers that I often need to follow up with a phone call for clarification. For him to peck out as much as you and I have typed here would take a very long time and he's just too busy. That may not be great, but it's the reality and I accept it. The other issue is that his internet service is spotty at best and has been down for several days at a time. I understand the frustration and start to get a little heated when emails go unanswered, but the phone is always there and they always pick it up and spend as much time as I need them to. They do submit warranty info to Kioti by web registration, but as far as I can tell by the piles of paper and lack of computers on desks, almost everything is still old school, they shake your had, smile and chat about more than just tractors and are busy with wrenches and tools getting them fixed when need be. I just traded my tractor for a bigger one last week and the invoice and trade info was hand written on an old style invoice pad style form.

 

[steveinyuma]

Please don't think I am condemning old school dealers in any way. I love to go to these places in any sort of business where people know what they're doing, have years of experience,have methods that work for them, and their surroundings show that. Just saying that the manufacturers are somewhat forcing the internet age upon them and how they accept it will affect their future as a dealership.
My only real peeves in the whole shopping process have been No response at all and, this being affected by many factors, I know, lack of having a new or extremely popular model in stock.
It's still been fun and I have met good and interesting people in the process. Makes me think I'll feel guilty when I pick one of them to buy from!

 

[kiotiken]

There will be some good dealers who are slower to adapt than others, but in the end they will. The speed at which they do will be pushed by their client base.

On the other hand, there are lots of other dealers who just don't care or get it when it comes to customer service. The JD dealer close to me is that way. I started with a JD 955 and the service was terrible. When I went to look at new tractors to replace my 955, I got the distinct impression they thought the idea of getting up from their desk to talk to me was a PITA.

This didn't eliminate JD as a brand, they make the tractor, my poor sales experience isn't (completely) their fault. I did manage to stop into a JD dealer in Toronto (500 km from home) while visiting family, got the info I was interested in, sat on the tractors asked the questions etc. In the end, I went a different direction. My point is, don't give up on a brand because of a dealer, you're only doing yourself a disservice if you do. Yes it's important to like your dealer and you may need to rely on them for parts or service from time to time, but if you can move a tractor 60 miles, you can move it 150.

I personally think that in the lower hp and size range, Kioti blows away the competition. As you move further up, there are other options that are close in specs, features and price. You'd be very wise to include the CK20 in your search. The CS line is to new and not available yet and the CK20 will be much more tractor anyway. Price wise, you'll have a hard time beating the CK20 for price, features or specs. If the Kioti dealer won't respond, look at a Bobcat CT122, the exact same tractor with a different loader.

 

[deezler]

I was really interested in a new Kioti here in well populated southeast Michigan. had to pass on my local dealer though, after he failed to give me any real quotes and told me "I don't really do the email thing".

Get with the times, people! Arg.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

your bx25 price seems high compared to pricing in Northern states (ND/MN)
I not too long ago bought a B2620 w/ fel and BH for less than you have listed for the BX25.

would have expected the BX to be less.

 

[PatasColo]

Hey Steveinyuma,
I'll go along with the folks who are recommending you look at the CK20S in addition to the others on your list (it's the current model of the CK20, has 22 HP, and as others have said, is largely the same as the Bobcat CT122). Most of the work you point out is "ground engaging". The CK20S is heavier than most of those other models, and when I compared it with the Kubota BX's (which I really like, BTW, and the local Kubota dealer is stellar), I found its lift and other capabilities to be roughly 50% higher. Most folks have noted that it is fairer to compare the Kioti to a B-series (not BX), but the B-series commands a price premium above the Kioti. And so it goes...

Also, make sure you look at ground clearance. This will make a big difference if your ground is rough at all (which it sounded like it might be). Some oif the smallest tractors can have about half the ground clearance of the next larger series.

In the end, I'm going to recommend you make sure to figure out which tractor really meets your needs, and then do your best to acquire one. Don't do yourself a disservice, as someone pointed out above in this thread, by eliminating tractors based on criteria that are not the MOST important.... and so the question: "What are your MOST important criteria?" is what you need to have solidly laid out for yourself.

Because of your situation, a significant problem with ANY tractor may require transport. This is simply a fact to work with. Buying even the most reliable brand does not get rid of this possibility... you can find stories here on TBN of many problems with ANY brand of tractor... it's just statistics, and you do your best to choose a good one, and then you get what you get (and hope it wasn't built just prior to the holiday weekend) .

I was in a similar situation as you, though there were a couple dealers closer by I could've selected. In the end, I knew that the CK20S was the best fit for me, so I accepted it was going to be 120 miles to the dealer. I've got a couple approaches in the back of my head for how to get it to the dealer if the need arises (which I hope it doesn't; I also have no truck nor trailer). I have a local Uhaul (rent trucks and trailers and tow equipment), I have good neighbors (though I'd feel hard pressed to call on one to borrow for such a distance, but, it is an option). And there are always old trucks and trailers for sale on craigslist. I figure if I'm going to have the tractor for at least 10 or 15 years, I'm likely to need to transport it, so I keep my eyes open for a good deal on a trailer.

Well, that's plenty long-winded enough. I wish you the very best, and mostly, that you end up with a tractor that makes you smile when you use it!
-Mitch

 

[steveinyuma]

PatasColo,
Great response. Narrow width and small size is most critical for access and storage both. I mentioned in an earlier post that the CT122 Bobcat was 5-6000 dollars more as quoted to me. It may be better, but that simply moves it out of the "value" realm in my book. The next Kioti dealer off from the one who quit responding is further than your 120 miles (and also doesn't stock SCUTS, just orders them). I definitely would consider it, unless it's similarly priced to the 122, and I suspect it is here in AZ, but not if I can't see it. The CS 2410 I wasn't that excited about when it used to be blue.
boakley,
This is clearly what I've found in my shopping. AZ prices are consistently more than other places with MSRP and advertised promos being it, no discounts or attachments thrown in, and other than Kubota BX, difficult to find real products. Out of state (cal and tx) quotes are better, but shipping, AZ's "use" tax", and some in state loyalty, pretty much kill that difference. In the end, it looks like this lack of interest in stocking SCUTS gives the main advantage to Kubota, 'cause they have something you can see and feel. Even with somewhat higher than the country prices, kinda makes me lean that way. Also, though I'm planning on keeping this 'til I'm dead or disabled, resale is within 2-3000 of new ones around here, if you can find one.
All,
I haven't put any effort into LS, though their J Series looks interesting. No response to email to dealer and Manufacturers website appears to be a historic look at 2010. Again, why bother? If you can't support a $10/hour typist once a week, how can you support a tractor?
Anyway, by mid June, I expect to quit typing and start scratching in the dirt with something, or at least putting down some scratch on it to get it home!

 

[PatasColo]

PatasColo,
...I mentioned in an earlier post that the CT122 Bobcat was 5-6000 dollars more as quoted to me. It may be better, but that simply moves it out of the "value" realm in my book. The next Kioti dealer off from the one who quit responding is further than your 120 miles (and also doesn't stock SCUTS, just orders them). I definitely would consider it, unless it's similarly priced to the 122, and I suspect it is here in AZ, but not if I can't see it.

As a data point for you, I found the Bobcat CT122 with backhoe was also being quoted here in N. Colorado at 4 to 5 thousand higher than the CK20S Kioti with backhoe... so you might find the CK20S to be still within your value realm. If that is the case, maybe it's worth it to call (phone) that nearest Kioti dealer. Yes, he's internet challenged. So are a lot of good people.... doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to buy a tractor from him. ( If he's also phone and people-interaction challenged, then that's a whole 'nother story! )

IMHO, the fact that a dealer isn't doing what "makes sense" to you or me from an internet/email standpoint shouldn't sway you too much, unless that's the ONLY method you're willing to use for communication (by your own choice). My experience shows me that plenty tractor dealers fall WAY short of the internet response we get from Amazon, eBay, or other internet-focused businesses. If they are doing fine without changing that, then they'll continue without changing (natural resistance to change, and if what you're doing is working, then why change anyway!?) So, don't try to make more sense or frustration of it than that... and focus on the things that will be important in the long haul while you have the tractor.

I have to admit, I'm sorta anxious to see what you end up doing! :tractor:
-Mitch

 

[steveinyuma]

Some time you're bored, look up Kioti dealers in Cal and AZ. Look up Deere dealers. Look for Mahindra, Massey Ferguson, then try CubCadet/Yanmar or even Ventrac. See what they have IN stock when you find one. Look at distances from 85362. They are far between and, as I stated, not all that competitive minded when it comes to SCUT.
I'm sorry, I know that people concentrate on what works for them, but seems like a business would want to do better, not just get by. I WON'T call as I can see that they obviously are too busy and don't need business from that PITA internet. Maybe I'm skipping a good tractor, but hey, I'd take one each Little One from all manufacturers if you were passing them out, and ask you for a big metal building to put them in!
I'm back where I started a year ago, having been to several states and visited 8-10 dealers of all types, with about half actually having tractors to show, many this past few weeks. I have not tried to nickle/dime dealers or gone back and forth with pricing, just expecting their best and real price and to see a product. I was treated pretty well by all when I actually showed up. Again, but why show up 100 miles away and find no tractors. I know I may have more time daily than a dealer, but I'm old and might be dead sooner than him too!
Time to quit whining and buy! Right? Upshot is, I spent part of today talking to a 3 yr happy BX25 owner.(showing his tractor when it's 112 degrees out there). Pending some final price/delivery/setup details, I"ll probably go with the Kubota. Salesmen have been responsive from several widespread locations. Compact size, adequate power, ease of attachment for loader and backhoe, and good reputation have 99% decided me. (The 1% is those fingers that write the check.) HST fore/aft control that I was sure I wouldn't like, seemed okay to my flakey right leg.
What I like about TBY is that for information and tips, I CAN have one of each (forums) any time I need too. I really appreciate all the input from this one, ('specially since I ended up here through my mistake!) but if things go as I hope, look for a picture soon at that other orange in Owning/Operating instead of Buying/Pricing.