Will DEF harm a CUT?

[chatwithtom]

I burned off about 90 gallons of diesel 2 years ago in a smudge pot after a similar half gallon of def mistake.

 

[tkrotchko]

NO DEF is extremely corrosive and will play havoc with the fuel system costing thousands of $ in repairs.

That's interesting. I wonder if you could just burn it in those kerosene heaters, or would it harm that as well?

 

[DeepEastTexas]

Diesel engines do not handle water very well!! Often times the engine head will crack when water is injected into a hot engine! The reason for water separators on many engines.
We should avoid stations that use the same filler hose for diesel & def!!
DEF is approximately 30% Urea and 70% water.

 

[4570Man]

That's interesting. I wonder if you could just burn it in those kerosene heaters, or would it harm that as well?

If you let the mixture settle in a container overnight and drained off the water the kerosene heater would probably be fine. The heater is not going to like the mixture of a half gallon of water in 5 gallons. I assume we’re talking about a torpedo style heater now. A smudge pot is a crude device that would burn any fuel that’s resembling flammable. A torpedo heater has a single injector that’s similar to a diesel engine although simpler and lower pressure. The torpedo heater requires pretty clean fuel to work.

 

[emp1953]

I filled my cans at a station that apparently pumps regular diesel by default, but if you push the button, it pumps DEF. I was confused by this and put about half a gallon in my 5 gallon can. It's hard to get a clear answer by searching online so I thought I'd ask on here. Do you think it's safe to use this can that is 90$ diesel and 10% DEF on my Kioti CS2510?
Thanks for any help/advice.

DEF should never be IN the fuel. Diesel Exhaust Fluid is injected into the exhaust to cut down certain emissions. Who ever put that dispenser button to run DEF through the same hose as diesel should be put in jail

 

[freedhardwoods]

I'm really surprised that it would be pumped through the same dispensing hose just requiring a push button selection.

There is absolutely no possible way that pump used the same hose for def and diesel. That would destroy every engine that fueled there.
Many times the def nozzle and hose is under a flap on the right side of the pump. The pic doesn't show the entire pump.

 

[MHarryE]

That was very confusing until someone else showed a picture of what your pump configuration is like. Convenient for truckers who can fill their DEF tank while they are filling diesel. I use on-highway in my tractors because I find off-highway where I get fuel to often be water contaminated. DEF is urea fertilizer (46-0-0) in a pure form mixed with deionized water. Almost all fertilizers are highy corrosive so any amount in a diesel system will destroy all components. But DEF combined with combustion products turns nitrous oxides harmful to your lungs to nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen all found in air. My dad, a non-smoker, was disabled due to lung damage determined to be from diesel exhaust when he was 55 and needed to find a new career for the years until retirment so I'm more reluctant to remove all pollution equipment. It's hard to watch a close relative unable to be active because of lung damage, but I remember him coming home from the fields at the end of the day covered in diesel soot, and he paid the price.

 

[sparky421]

The DEF is under cover on right side of pump. Your picture does not go wide enough to show that.
DEF is not pumped thru the same hose as diesel.

 

[bcarlson]

Those pumps that run either diesel or DEF thru the same hose are absolutely the dumbest idea I have ever seen. Even a single hose fulls amount of DEF will give your diesel's fuel system huge and expensive to fix problems. I hope the stations that are using these things get sued for every bit of damage they are causing people.

 

[Deepdrop]

I'm sorry this conversation got a little out of hand but I really appreciate all the points of view. I agree that if there is any risk of DEF contamination, I will dispose of the fuel I bought.
I was not familiar with DEF and I was confused by the setup of the pump. I think that several people pointed out that there is very likely a separate dedicated DEF hose hidden behind a door on the pump. That is the only thing that make sense. This station is a truck stop, and if diesel was being contaminated with DEF by using the same hose, it would be destroying trucks.
I WILL GO BACK THERE AND TAKE A PHOTO OF THE HIDDEN HOSE BEHIND THE DOOR. I may not get there today but I will go in the next few days and post the photo.
That will resolve my confusion and hopefully that of anyone else. It's been a learning experience for me.
Thank you all.

 

[Ghostdance56]

There is a fueling station close to me that uses one hos for gasoline and diesel! In the commercial truck area those pumps have one hose for DEF and diesel! I no longer use that station even though it normally has the cheapest fuel.

 

[qualsite]

As usual, the root cause is the government coming up with fixes for imagined problems and making everything worse. And then the problem ends up being a foolish retailer trying to be helpful, but selling two incompatible products through one hose without any way to purge between uses. Sounds like a lawsuit in the making. But as usual, the government remains in the clear, skating any responsibility for anything, and the "peasants" suffer the consequences. Yep.. dump what you think is contaminated, and never buy fuel there again. Yet another reason I use an old tractor, before the government got their corrosive fingers into the mix, trying to regulate and control everything and everyone.

 

[zzvyb6]

Next time you need D.E.F. , just pee into the tank ! Problem solved.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

...since it does not contain sulfur if running in a older machine I would add transmission fluid to the fuel about 1 quart per 5 Gallons, to keep the injection pump lubricated. the sulfur in Diesel fuel helps lube the injection pump

It's time for the misconception that sulfur was the lubricant in diesel to go away. Minimizing the sulfur content also affected the lubricating properties, but it wasn't the sulfur itself.

Also, ATF is not meant to burn, which is one strike against it. There are plenty of additives available made for the purpose, which are also compatible with modern diesel pumps.

 

[olenjohn]

Find somebody that runs a semi that uses DEF. Put the 5 gallons in their tank. The 1/2 gallon def with 100 gallons of DEF shouldn’t be a problem for them. Different story in your tractor.

 

[4570Man]

Find somebody that runs a semi that uses DEF. Put the 5 gallons in their tank. The 1/2 gallon def with 100 gallons of DEF shouldn’t be a problem for them. Different story in your tractor.

That’s terrible advice and 1/2 gallon of DEF in 100 gallon of diesel will be a problem. The DEF won’t mix with the diesel and you’ll have 1/2 a gallon of def sitting on the bottom of the tank. Deliberately pouring half a gallon of water into any fuel tank regardless of how large is a stupid idea. The fact that DEF isn’t straight water and is also corrosive makes it even more stupid.

 

[butasha]

On a side note and completely off track but at times when fertilizer prices are high I have used straight DEF on one of my houses that has a Bermuda yard and requires a lot of nitrogen. DEF is basically just urea which is nitrogen fertilizer 15-0-0 and water. Mix with water and spray on the yard. I have a skid sprayer in a side by side that I use to spray fertilizer and chemicals here on the ranch so application is easy for me.

 

[moon1234]

Here is how DEF is used:

When diesel engines burn fuel they do it in an oxygen rich/fuel lean environment. When any fuel burns in an oxygen rich environment Nitrogen Oxides are created. These gases are the primary source of smog. It also is not a great substance for human lungs and in high enough concentrations can induce asthma and other issues.

Modern diesel engines have a system to reduce the amount of NOx that comes out the tailpipe as well as reducing the amount of particulate matter/soot, and reducing unburnt hydrocarbons (unused fuel).

The NOx system is composed of:
- Tank to hold the DEF fluid
- Heaters in the tank and lines to keep it from freezing
- Injector(s) to dispense it
- Diesel Oxidation Catalyst
- Selective Catalytic Reduction
- Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve (EGR)

NOx is a gas. It must be reacted with another gas to convert the NOx into harmless CO2, Water and Nitrogen gas.

The SCR/DOC is a piece of equipment in the exhaust system. It is coated with platinum group precious metals. These are what allow the chemical reaction that converts the NOx into the harmless gases.

Anywho, the DEF is injected into the SCR/DOC when it is up to temp. The Urea in the DEF will decompose to Ammonia gas. The Ammonia will react with the NOx in the presence of the precious metals and a chemical reaction will occur which causes the conversion of the NOx into the harmless gases.

There are NOx “sensors”, glorified oxygen sensors, that measure the amount of NOx before the SCR system and after the SCR system. These readings, along with other engine performance calculations, determine how much DEF is injected. Driving style and vehicle use will greatly influence the amount of NOx created. Mashing the go pedal to the floor or heavy towing will both greatly increase NOx.

The DOC/SCR system comes AFTER the diesel particulate filter (DPF). The DPF is a cylinder like container that is filled with a honeycomb like structure with small holes. It is connected directly to the exhaust system.

As soot is created, it gets trapped in the DPF. There are differential pressure sensors that measure the drop in airflow across the DPF as soot builds up. Once the pressure drop is high enough a “regeneration” is initiated. This is where a small amount of raw fuel is allowed into the DPF where it burns at a hot temp. This occurs either through engine exhaust valve timing adjustment/fuel injection increase OR a dedicated injector (most recent diesel vehicles).

The raw fuel heats the DPF hot enough to burn the soot into ash. The ash falls to the bottom of the DPF and collects. Driving style and vehicle use will determine how quickly the ash fills the bottom of the DPF. Eventually it will need to either be emptied/cleaned or replaced.

If too many short trips are driven then the soot never gets a chance to be burned into ash. Too much built up soot can cause exhaust gasses to build to a higher pressure and cause engine malfunctions. This is why modern diesel trucks are not a good choice for people who drive a lot of short trips.

 

[RaydaKub]

Also, why would you mix On Road with Off Road? Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Why would that be? Can't they still charge different prices for regular and dyed fuel? You might get a few ounces of dyed in your pickup, but no big deal.

 

[Charkmapman]

I filled my cans at a station that apparently pumps regular diesel by default, but if you push the button, it pumps DEF. I was confused by this and put about half a gallon in my 5 gallon can. It's hard to get a clear answer by searching online so I thought I'd ask on here. Do you think it's safe to use this can that is 90$ diesel and 10% DEF on my Kioti CS2510?
Thanks for any help/advice.

Absolutely not Do not even go to that pump anymore. Dedicated line pump only. Same for non ethanol. Dedicated pump only. If not dedicated you are pumping whatever is left in the line with your fuel