will it take off?

[daTeacha]

RE flying fish, there is an asian carp that makes a habit of jumping several feet out of the water, weighs several pounds, and can cause serious bodily harm when crashing into innocent boaters. The things are among the latest exotic species found in some of the waters of Ohio. These are not the marine flying fish with the extra large pectoral fins, but large fish that jump out of the water and smack into you.

Getting back to the plane and presuming it does not get damaged by said fish, the possibility of a magic float has been overlooked. If the float has a magic belt on it which goes round and round, running backwards at the bottom of the float and forwards at the top, friction between the float and the water would be substantially reduced while producing a negative laminar flow of air over the top of the float and the bottom of the wing. This could produce negative lift, causing the plane to sink and displace more lake water.

PAGE 100!

 

[Iplayfarmer]

RE flying fish, there is an asian carp that makes a habit of jumping several feet out of the water
QUOTE]

When I first read that, I thought you had written "asian Corp." I was flat out impressed that these peons in asian corporations would be jumping out of the water. I wouldn't put it past them after some of the other stuff I've heard.

Post 992!

 

[RobS]

So, if an Asian Carp leaps out of the water into a magical airstream above the water, will it land?

 

[turnkey4099]

RE flying fish, there is an asian carp that makes a habit of jumping several feet out of the water, weighs several pounds, and can cause serious bodily harm when crashing into innocent boaters. The things are among the latest exotic species found in some of the waters of Ohio. These are not the marine flying fish with the extra large pectoral fins, but large fish that jump out of the water and smack into you.

Getting back to the plane and presuming it does not get damaged by said fish, the possibility of a magic float has been overlooked. If the float has a magic belt on it which goes round and round, running backwards at the bottom of the float and forwards at the top, friction between the float and the water would be substantially reduced while producing a negative laminar flow of air over the top of the float and the bottom of the wing. This could produce negative lift, causing the plane to sink and displace more lake
water. PAGE 100!

But if there is tank full of flying fish in the plane and it is about to run out of ground effect, can you pound on the tank, make the fish fly and thus decrease the load?

Harry K

 

[patrick_g]

But if there is tank full of flying fish in the plane and it is about to run out of ground effect, can you pound on the tank, make the fish fly and thus decrease the load?

Harry K

Harry, Ultimately any lift generated by the fish to maintain "flight" less ballistic than a near parabola is applied as a force to the containing enclosure. I fear to lighten ship, you'd have to toss them free of the plane (possibly followed by cargo in increasing order of value and decreasing order by weight till at some point you toss out passengers and then the co-pilot.) I volunteer to sit in the left seat.

Regarding ground effect causing a stall... It is a contributory factor but not a true cause. The cause of the stall is the pilot trying to "force" the plane to continue to climb after reaching the upper limit of the ground effect which had been aiding his climb and increasing the angle of attack (alpha) in a vain attempt to increase the true flight path elevation angle (beta) and get more altitude (AG) to avoid such things as tall trees, towers, buildings, cumulus granite and such.

In these instances the last thing to go through the pilot's mind as he is contemplating his failure is often the tail of the aircraft!

Pat

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Harry, Ultimately any lift generated by the fish to maintain "flight" less ballistic than a near parabola is applied as a force to the containing enclosure. I fear to lighten ship, you'd have to toss them free of the plane (possibly followed by cargo in increasing order of value and decreasing order by weight till at some point you toss out passengers and then the co-pilot.) I volunteer to sit in the left seat.

Regarding ground effect causing a stall... It is a contributory factor but not a true cause. The cause of the stall is the pilot trying to "force" the plane to continue to climb after reaching the upper limit of the ground effect which had been aiding his climb and increasing the angle of attack (alpha) in a vain attempt to increase the true flight path elevation angle (beta) and get more altitude (AG) to avoid such things as tall trees, towers, buildings, cumulus granite and such.

In these instances the last thing to go through the pilot's mind as he is contemplating his failure is often the tail of the aircraft!

Pat

Pat,

I don't think anyone is trying to say that ground effect causes a stall.

I've been trying to say what you're saying... the lack of ground effect is what facilitates the stall. I.e. "after reaching the upper limit of the ground effect which had been aiding his climb".

 

[patrick_g]

Pat,

I don't think anyone is trying to say that ground effect causes a stall.

I've been trying to say what you're saying... the lack of ground effect is what facilitates the stall. I.e. "after reaching the upper limit of the ground effect which had been aiding his climb".

Perhaps I was led astray by the following I reproduced from earlier posts, assertions that are not entirely true:

+ + + + + + + + +
"So... Ground effect will only come into play if the plane is overloaded, at which point the plane will take off due to ground effect and then stall crashing into Eddie's lake truly scaring whatever fish haven't been liquified by the magic impeller causing the backwards current.

Once the pilot climbs out of ground effect wingtip vortices will form, the wings will stall, and the aircraft will suddenly descend - usually resulting in a crash."
+ + + + + + + + + +

Many modern aircraft have special wingtips that induce a rotating component to be equal in magnitude and opposite in phase (direction) to wing tip vortices and cancel them over a relatively wide dynamic range of aerodynamic conditions, especially but not restricted to cruise configuration.

A crash is only probable if 1. the pilot does what I described earlier, try to maintain the ground effect assisted rate of climb. Pilots can get nervous when during a takeoff-climbout their VSI swings to less positive numbers or negative values. If they make the error of flying the VSI as a control instrument rather than as intended, a performance instrument, they can easily achieve a greater angle of attack than can be maintained, lose lift, and approach or enter a stall condition.

or 2. (a variant of the above) the pilot sets up an unrealistically rapid ascent after rotation and lift off (relatively easily achieved with ground effect) and gets well above the altitude where ground effect would cushion him sufficiently and after having traded off airspeed for altitude (kinetic energy for potential energy) rapidly finds himself too nose high and too low on airspeed with an ensuing stall.

With conventional (old fashioned original recipe wings) both of the above scenarios is more likely but not assured.

Note: a stall in and of itself is not dangerous to the aircraft or occupants but requires the loss of altitude for a recovery Iin "normal aircraft" and when the required loss of altitude exceeds the height above solid objects of the aircraft a lot of impromptu customizing of the airframe and the pilot's frame is likely.

Note2: If the climb after rotation is more gradual, the overweight (for available power) aircraft will gently be trapped near the top of the ground effect with no stall. It would still be a frightening thing to be flying cross country at an elevation of (say) 50-80 feet (depending on the wing loading, power available, etc.

Since the magic impeller will prevent the float plane from taking off or even moving forward, all the discussion regarding ground effect is, although of some passing interest, not applicable to the problem at hand.

Pat

 

[RobJ]

Harry, Ultimately any lift generated by the fish to maintain "flight" less ballistic than a near parabola is applied as a force to the containing enclosure. I fear to lighten ship, you'd have to toss them free of the plane (possibly followed by cargo in increasing order of value and decreasing order by weight till at some point you toss out passengers and then the co-pilot.) I volunteer to sit in the left seat.

Or just watch mythbusters once again. They did this with birds, no weight change. Of course the twist with the fish is it isn't "producing" any lift as the birds are with downward air. It's just chucking itself out of the water.

In Destin FL I saw many bass jumping out of the water in the golf course ponds.

998!!!!!

 

[patrick_g]

Or just watch mythbusters once again. They did this with birds, no weight change. Of course the twist with the fish is it isn't "producing" any lift as the birds are with downward air. It's just chucking itself out of the water.

In Destin FL I saw many bass jumping out of the water in the golf course ponds.

998!!!!!

Rob, Have you ever personally seen flying fish "jump" out of the water? How about a movie maybe?

They swim close to the surface and jump out of the water like other fish B U T once in the air they use their enlarged pectoral fins (and sometimes caudal fins depending on which kind of flying fish) to fly/glide for considerable distances. Their wings produce lift from the air flow over their fins. This is no different from a gliding or soaring bird. The transfer of momentum takes place.

Flying fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pat

 

[turnkey4099]

Rob, Have you ever personally seen flying fish "jump" out of the water? How about a movie maybe?

They swim close to the surface and jump out of the water like other fish B U T once in the air they use their enlarged pectoral fins (and sometimes caudal fins depending on which kind of flying fish) to fly/glide for considerable distances. Their wings produce lift from the air flow over their fins. This is no different from a gliding or soaring bird. The transfer of momentum takes place.

Flying fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pat

Yes, they do glide and do so for surprising distances and heights. I picked up a couple on the deck of a liberty ship...okay, a converted liberty ship but I did go overseas (1955) on the General something or other.

Harry K