will it take off?

[TomKioti]

From the original post

"as the plane moves the conveyor moves but in the opposite direction.the conveyor has a system that tracks the speed of the plane and matches it exactly in the opposite direction"

Again, if the plane is going 200 mph forward, the conveyor is going 200 mph backwards. Nothing to negate the force of the engine thrust.

jk

Thrust does not create air movement, except for the air moving through the engine which is compressed and focused (ventury style) and only achieves success in it's thrust to movement ratio by a non-incumbered attached mass (IE. a jet with wheels). A treadmill at equal opposition will effectively nullify that process of movement of said mass. Bottom line, if the plane does not physically move through the air at the required air speed for lift it AIN'T flying. I will no longer be redundant, I promise. Show me the un-altered video to disprove me. Wife say's you still aren't buying lunch. Sorry.

 

[RayH]

I said nothing of the wheels (however they are conected to the plane), forget the wheels. I said if the phantom treadmill NEGATES AND MATCHES the FORWARD THRUST AND MOVEMENT of the aircraft then effectively there would be no mass (big jet) actually moving. Hence no flight properties would exist. MYTH STILL BUSTED AND WIFE SAYS NO DAGGON HAPPY MEALS AND TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE!!! Sorry folks.

Ok, lets forget the wheels. Lets bolt the plane to the MCB. (like having the brakes applied)
Question: What will happen with plane bolted to MCB?
Answer: Nothing. As soon as the plane starts pulling forward, the MCB will immediately pull it back and neither will go anywhere.
In the above situation, the MCB is indeed equaling the thrust of the engine because they are bolted together.
Now what if the bolts are removed (or the brakes are released)? The MCB no longer equals the thrust of the engine, now all it does is equal the thrust of the wheels because the engine and conveyor are no longer connected together..

 

[RayH]

Thrust does not create air movement, except for the air moving through the engine which is compressed and focused (ventury style) and only achieves success in it's thrust to movement ratio by a non-incumbered attached mass (IE. a jet with wheels). A treadmill at equal opposition will effectively nullify that process of movement of said mass. Bottom line, if the plane does not physically move through the air at the required air speed for lift it AIN'T flying. I will no longer be redundant, I promise. Show me the un-altered video to disprove me. Wife say's you still aren't buying lunch. Sorry.

I think we all agree that the plane needs to move forward to achieve lift to fly. The disagreement is whether or not the plane will move forward.

 

[RayH]

Think of the wheels like the clutch in a car. When you push the clutch in, the torque (thrust) of the engine no longer has a connection to the thrust (resistance) of the ground. Wheels on a plane are the same. With the brakes released, the thrust of the engine or the resistance of the ground no longer influence each other.

 

[HTWT]

Why do some people keep the MCB moving and the plane stationay when it violates the original problem. The MCB only moves if the plane moves. If the plane is stationary then the MCB doesn't move. Brakes on engine rev up does plane move NO does MCB move NO. Take the brakes off does plane move? Or does MCB move to prevent plane from moving. If the MCB prevents the plane from moving the original problem is violated. WHEN THE PLANE MOVES.

 

[TomKioti]

now all it does is equal the thrust of the wheels because the engine and conveyor are no longer connected together..

What the heck is the thrust of the wheels? The connection of the engine and conveyer are not disconnected in the original post. They are synchronized.
I know everyones supposition is that thrust will win but, only if the treadmill will at some point lose the tracking of the wheel speed and it's attached mass. If there is a thrust = conveyer equity then I can't see it eventually moving beyond relative neatrual i.e. no flight.

 

[jk96]

Tom

I know you love my drawings So let's go back to the first of the helicopter.

In this drawing, if the wheels are attached to the treadmill. Can the treadmill prevent the helicopter from lifting off the ground and flying vertically by moving in the opposite direction? Just answer this question first.

The answer is no, the rotors of the helicopter pull it upward and it lifts off of the ground no matter how fast the treadmill spins in the opposite direction. If you argue I am wrong on this then there is no point in going any farther.

Now take the second illustration. This is no different then the first illustration. Only now, the rotars are pulling through the air horizontally instead of vertically. The very same application as an airplane.

If you answered "The helicopter will not lift off the ground" for the first illustration. Then there is no hope for further explanation. If you answered "Yes, it will lift off of the ground" Then please explain to me why it will not move horizontally as well in the second illustration

jk

 

[RayH]

Why do some people keep the MCB moving and the plane stationay when it violates the original problem. The MCB only moves if the plane moves. If the plane is stationary then the MCB doesn't move. Brakes on engine rev up does plane move NO does MCB move NO. Take the brakes off does plane move? Or does MCB move to prevent plane from moving. If the MCB prevents the plane from moving the original problem is violated. WHEN THE PLANE MOVES.

Thank you, yes.
Ive argued this and it basically means the whole "no fly" point of view is bogus. either the plane moves, or it doesnt. Is I could just get the "no flys" to answer that one question. Yes or no. Does the plane move?

 

[RayH]

What the heck is the thrust of the wheels? The connection of the engine and conveyer are not disconnected in the original post. They are synchronized.
I know everyones supposition is that thrust will win but, only if the treadmill will at some point lose the tracking of the wheel speed and it's attached mass. If there is a thrust = conveyer equity then I can't see it eventually moving beyond relative neatrual i.e. no flight.

Thrust/resistance, its the same. Resistance is thrust in the opposite direction. Actually I should use the term DRAG instead of resistance. Would that help. drag=thrust, the plane stands still.
In my statement above, the wheels have drag, not thrust, hows that?.

Im trying to figure out why you think wheel speed has anything to do with a plane taking off? A plane can takeoff standing still if it has anough headwind. That would be zero wheel speed and the plane can still takeoff. Or the plane could be taking off with a tailwind and need twice the wheelspeed or ground speed to takeoff.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Quote "No energy from the engine is being "forced back into the conveyor". The only way that could be done is for the wheels to be somehow driven by the engine."

Harry, I think you should read what I actually said.
Larry