Wiring Help Needed

[sld]

I recently installed a 4 person hot tub that plugs into a GFCI 110v outlet on the deck. The manual says it only pulls 13 amps max so no issues there.

The problem is I use my electric smoker on the deck also and running both will obviously trip the breaker. This particular outlet shares some other outlets as well on the same breaker but nothing that gets used much.

I would like to add a dedicated outlet for either the smoker or hot tub. I have heard you can tap into the 220v junction box mounted to the outside of the house that feeds the AC unit. Is this possible to tap into this for a 110v source? Since i drain the hot tub during the warm months it would never be used at the same time as the AC. The smoker gets used year around.

Ideally, I run wire to create new 220v outlet for the hot tub as it can also run on 220v. I am just not that motivated yet.

 

[davesl708]

yes it is possible to pull one leg of 220 to get 110. The outside AC unit is not also a heat pump for the furnace is it?
Best would be to run a dedicated line for the hot tub.

 

[PILOON]

yes it is possible to pull one leg of 220 to get 110. The outside AC unit is not also a heat pump for the furnace is it?
Best would be to run a dedicated line for the hot tub.

And since water is present a GFI should be used.

 

[oldnslo]

What size breaker is on the 220 service. Is there also a true ground wire or just a neutral wire in this service. True ground and neutral is required for GFI.

 

[MossRoad]

I thought the AC was usually on a dedicated circuit sized for the load. You may be moving the overload from the hot tub circuit to the AC circuit. It would be best to run a 110 GFCI circuit to the outside for the smoker. And if you're going to go to the trouble of running a second 110v circuit from the main panel to the outside, you may as well run a 220v circuit for the hot tub instead, and keep using the smoker on the 110v circuit that's already there. Its still just one cable pull, either way you look at it. It will take up two spaces in your box instead of one.

 

[joefromga]

You'll need a neutral which most likely doesn't exist and you're not supposed to use that 240v service for anything but that ac unit.

 

[LittleBill21]

What size breaker is on the 220 service. Is there also a true ground wire or just a neutral wire in this service. True ground and neutral is required for GFI.

Ground is not need for a gfci to work, it measure imbalance between hot and neutral

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfci-no-ground-31370/

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Another note to the wise. GFCIs installed outside or in damp areas have an extremely high failure rate due to corrosion of the components, especially where I am, in high humidity environment. Like the reference from the home inspectors it is likely they will fall into those statistics. Recommended practice for outside outlets is to put the GFCI in an interior receptacle circuit and daisy chain to the exterior outlets. Sometimes it is an easter egg hunt to find where the controlling unit is. I always label them. Check them often.

Ron

 

[dragoneggs]

First of all... a hot tub and smoker on the deck is a sweet luxury... I know... I have the same! If you can, I would bite the bullet and run a dedicated circuit for your hot tub and a better luxury is to put in a breaker switch box (subpanel) for the hot tub for draining/maintenance reasons.

I agree with Seabee here, an interior GFI outlet first in line on your circuit is ideal for all outdoor outlets. At a minimum, in general, I would waterproof/cover all of your exterior outlets.

 

[Al Mac]

Ground is not need for a gfci to work, it measure imbalance between hot and neutral

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfci-no-ground-31370/

So what is the "G" for in GFCI. It will test without a ground but is the unit protected. Would that make 2 smokers on the deck. One wet smoker and one dry smoker. :shocked:

Al

 

[joefromga]

So what is the "G" for in GFCI. It will test without a ground but is the unit protected. Would that make 2 smokers on the deck. One wet smoker and one dry smoker. :shocked:

Al

The unit is protected. The GFCI detects differences between the hot and neutral wires and breaks the circuit if there is any.

The problem is that ac cut off will most likely not have a neutral wire. And if it did he would be pulling those 13a from one side of that circuit while pulling less from the other side while running the AC. It's just a poor idea and shouldn't be done.

 

[grsthegreat]

A air cond circuit would have 2 hots and a ground. NO NEUTRAL.
SO THE ANSWER IS NO.
You should not tap off a 110 from the 220. People that do this use the ground as a neutral return path. This is a major nono

 

[LD1]

Agree to run another circuit.

Even if the AC unit did have a neutral, it is likely protected with more than a standard 20a breaker. Probably 30a or 40a. Which would make everything else downstream to the tub most likely undersized.

The "G" in GFCI stands for ground, but it isnt referring to just the ground wire. It is referring to actual ground (earth) and/or any path the current can take to get there. Any current going IN the GFI through the hot wire MUST return on the neutral. If it does not, it assumes it is lost to ground somewhere (earth) and "assumes" it is getting to earth through YOU. So it trips to save your life.

 

[oldnslo]

Ground is not need for a gfci to work, it measure imbalance between hot and neutral

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfci-no-ground-31370/

Interesting: Here in Northern IL if there is not a neutral and ground connected to the GFI it will not meet code and your inspection fails.

Not sure if this to provide a reduntant circuit to ground or for secondary protection or someones idea on a way to increase funds when remodeling older two wire homes.. (probably the most accurate reason)

 

[joefromga]

On GFCI outlets code requires a sticker to say ungrounded outlet. Most actually come with the stickers and they'll pass inspection on older buildings.

It's definitely safer to people but many homes still have the 2 wire system. The wiring is protected through neutral to buss bar but if your non-double insulated tool shorts to the case you'll get a shock and maybe be killed without a ground. But who knows in a gcfi setup if that would still happen. Most likely no.

 

[LittleBill21]

On GFCI outlets code requires a sticker to say ungrounded outlet. Most actually come with the stickers and they'll pass inspection on older buildings.

It's definitely safer to people but many homes still have the 2 wire system. The wiring is protected through neutral to buss bar but if your non-double insulated tool shorts to the case you'll get a shock and maybe be killed without a ground. But who knows in a gcfi setup if that would still happen. Most likely no.

why would u be killed with the gfci? if the current is balanced between hot and neutral then nothing is going through your body, u only die when the current finds its way to ground through your body, thus off balancing the hot neutral, thus kicking the gfci

 

[joefromga]

That's why I said probably no. Unless it fails and stays hot. I'm sure it's happened somewhere but I've never heard of it.

 

[jrepp44]

Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words No Equipment Ground; or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words GFCI Protected and No Equipment Ground.

 

[TheSpoon]

Everyone is missing the obvious answer. Get a new pellet smoker. Perhaps a Rec Tec or nice Traeger. Don't have to plug it in, don't have to worry about tripping.

Bonus: More smoked goodness.

 

[LD1]

The ground wire is there for a different purpose than a GFI circuit.