Wiring subpanel

[buickanddeere]

As the rules are different between countries. It is all up to the local inspector on what he wants (he has the last say).

Here in my part of Canada a ground rod would not be required for a sub service. In the first post it was said that the cable was a 2/2/2/4 and the 4 is the ground back to the main service. All services only requires one grounding point which at the main service.

If this was a overhead (triplex) line from the house to the barn then a ground rod would be required as the triplex has no ground separate ground wire.

I'm in Canada too and ground rods are required at remote panels.Canada follows the NEC and local provincial codes make the code even more stringent.j




Al

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[buickanddeere]

I thought about it for a second. Glad the inspection is done. Part of the problem is in your question.

A barn or out building is not a sub panel but rather its own service, even if served from your house. So don't remove the neutral to ground strap (jumper). Because the barn is its own service you need another ground source. Here that would mean a ground plate or two driven ground rods, this can be different in different jurisdictions.

For clarity, a sub panel would be in the same building. In a sub panel is where you remove the neutral to ground jumper as you only ground your neutral once per service.

I realize it's a play in n words but it's similar to ground and bond, totally different but still

the same.

Not a blanket statement. A four wire supply to the remote panel DOES require a ground rod system and the neutral ground bond opened at the remote panel.
The triplex supplies from the bad old days when nobody knew any better causes confusion and problems to this day.

 

[chevy]

Somebody is mixed up between ground and neutral.there is a long line of people who can't seem to tell the difference no matter how many times they are told. The neutral floats isolated from ground from the 1st electrical service back to the barn.
The ground is also ran from the 1st electrical service back to the barn. Connected to two ground rods at the barn and to the ground bar, the ground bar only of the barn panel.
No connection between neutral and ground at barn.

Some of the confusion comes from some power companies not running a neutral line with the power lines. Those companies depend on the earth for the neutral.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Some of the confusion comes from some power companies not running a neutral line with the power lines. Those companies depend on the earth for the neutral.

???? don't think so. could you elaborate more on this.

 

[JimRB]

I thought the NEC said grounded and grounding. I have the 1996 book back when I built my house. Grounded was listed as N in the book towards the front and grounding had a symbol that I believe to be that 10 foot rod driven into the dirt. Or maybe those two rods in the dirt. Or three, or maybe even the metal in the concrete. I think of grounded and neutral as synonyms. Grounded is white, grounding is green or bare copper heading to the earth.

By the way the industrial electrician/contractor had to read and reread the code when he helped me rough service the barn. Unbonded in the panel with a grounding rod is what we did. 2 hot legs, grounded/neutral and grounding/green wire back to the house.

 

[yelbike]

???? don't think so. could you elaborate more on this.

The term is "T LINE". In rural areas, you may notice a single pole with a single line, hot only. Typically 4kv, run a bug on the farm yard. The return path, neutral, is through the earth. Its works fine but it's usually a practice found in older areas.

 

[MossRoad]

HA! I found it! I knew I posted a diagram of my home and garage wiring here many years ago. So here it is. It shows the isolated neutral, the isolated ground, the ground rods at the house, the ground rod at the garage, etc....

As I recall, the first panel after the meter is considered the MAIN panel. The ground and neutral are bonded in the main panel. In my case, I have a service disconnect directly under the meter outside the house. That service disconnect is considered the MAIN panel, so that is where the neutral and ground are bonded. Every panel after that is considered a SUB panel, and the neutral and grounds must remain isolated within those panels.

So, even though many would consider the big circuit breaker panel in their house the MAIN panel, if they have a service disconnect between it and the meter, it is probably a SUB panel, even though they call it the main panel. Make sense?

 

[Al Mac]

Well MossRoad a picture is worth a thousand words.

That is how it is done here with a couple small changes. Our 2 rods are 10 feet (or one ground plate) and the rod at the subpanel is not required. The thought is that if the main service ground wire is broken/ cut then the system is using the subpanel ground rod that is not sized to take the grounding from the main service.
The person signing off on the project has the final say.

Al

 

[buickanddeere]

I thought the NEC said grounded and grounding. I have the 1996 book back when I built my house. Grounded was listed as N in the book towards the front and grounding had a symbol that I believe to be that 10 foot rod driven into the dirt. Or maybe those two rods in the dirt. Or three, or maybe even the metal in the concrete. I think of grounded and neutral as synonyms. Grounded is white, grounding is green or bare copper heading to the earth.

By the way the industrial electrician/contractor had to read and reread the code when he helped me rough service the barn. Unbonded in the panel with a grounding rod is what we did. 2 hot legs, grounded/neutral and grounding/green wire back to the house.

Jim it's time to un-synonym the ground and neutral. Neutral is an insulated load current carrying conductor which is held to near near potential . The ground system is used to hold the chassis of electrical equipment , cattle stancions , milking parlors and live stock waters to earth potential.
Running neutral current through a ground system is a d@m fool thing to do. As that energizes the electrical enclosures, cattle stancions, mjlking parlors and water basins.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

The term is "T LINE". In rural areas, you may notice a single pole with a single line, hot only. Typically 4kv, run a bug on the farm yard. The return path, neutral, is through the earth. Its works fine but it's usually a practice found in older areas.

Nice thing about TBN, learn something new every day. So you are describing the grid feed to the house, not within the house system. If it's 4kv, it is still feeding a transformer, which would then derive the local neutral and bonding point for the house.
Never seen a T line.

Mossroad - yes, that is the way it should be done. Neutral, Ground and Bonding are different things.

 

[DarkBlack]

I thought the NEC said grounded and grounding. I have the 1996 book back when I built my house. Grounded was listed as N in the book towards the front and grounding had a symbol that I believe to be that 10 foot rod driven into the dirt. Or maybe those two rods in the dirt. Or three, or maybe even the metal in the concrete. I think of grounded and neutral as synonyms. Grounded is white, grounding is green or bare copper heading to the earth.

By the way the industrial electrician/contractor had to read and reread the code when he helped me rough service the barn. Unbonded in the panel with a grounding rod is what we did. 2 hot legs, grounded/neutral and grounding/green wire back to the house.

Yes, neutral is the 'grounded' conductor-white.
Bare, or green is the 'grounding' conductor.

 

[Mace Canute]

Some of the confusion comes from some power companies not running a neutral line with the power lines. Those companies depend on the earth for the neutral

.

???? don't think so. could you elaborate more on this.

The term is "T LINE". In rural areas, you may notice a single pole with a single line, hot only. Typically 4kv, run a bug on the farm yard. The return path, neutral, is through the earth. Its works fine but it's usually a practice found in older areas.

Here in Saskatchewan because of good soil conductivity earth return is used throughout the vast majority of the province on both existing and new construction. Our Distribution three phase system is a WYE system with 25,000 V phase-to-phase and 14,400 V to earth.

 

[Mac25]

Ok, now I am really confused. Here are my questions....I initially bought 2-2-4 wire....will this suffice as the two hots and a neutral? If not, can I just go buy a single run of wire and use it as the ground if I have to run 4 wire? My main service panel at the house has 3 main feeds coming into the panel, two hots and a ground. I understand the neutral bar and ground bar are bonded there, so would I still need to run a neutral and ground from that panel to the barn panel? If I end up running 4 wire, I run my two hots to barn panel, 1 neutral and 1 ground and then another 10 ft ground to a ground rod?

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[s219]

You'd really want 2-2-2-4 for the run. Not sure if it's legal to have a separate ground, though it may be ok for underground run as long as it's tied into metal grounding on the ends. For interior wiring, it would probably be a no-no.

Your last question is the correct approach.

By the way, your main service should have two hots and a neutral, not two hots and a ground.

 

[buickanddeere]

.


Here in Saskatchewan because of good soil conductivity earth return is used throughout the vast majority of the province on both existing and new construction. Our Distribution three phase system is a WYE system with 25,000 V phase-to-phase and 14,400 V to earth.

The three phase distribution system doesn't carry primary neutral current on a Delta -Wye system.the problem arises on single phase high and low voltage distribution. VD on the neutral induces current flow through the ground rods places about every 10th pole.
In hind sight everything should have been routed with two live lines on single phase.
Ontario has a varied mixture of a little ancient 2.3KV, mostly 4800v for single phase distribution, 13.8/27KV and 44KV for supplies from substations to the surrounding towns and local step down distribution to 4800. Transmission lines from generators and rising the electrical grid together is 115/230/500KV.

 

[buickanddeere]

Ok, now I am really confused. Here are my questions....I initially bought 2-2-4 wire....will this suffice as the two hots and a neutral? If not, can I just go buy a single run of wire and use it as the ground if I have to run 4 wire? My main service panel at the house has 3 main feeds coming into the panel, two hots and a ground. I understand the neutral bar and ground bar are bonded there, so would I still need to run a neutral and ground from that panel to the barn panel? If I end up running 4 wire, I run my two hots to barn panel, 1 neutral and 1 ground and then another 10 ft ground to a ground rod?

It's two live lines and a neutral coming from the utility to the house. How pray tell after you have been told how many times that a neutral conductor carries neutral current ? That you are calling the neutral a ground ?

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[Mac25]

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My house panel has the neutral bar on the left and ground bar on the right, 2 big wires going to the main breaker and 1 big wire going to the right side ground bar, thats why I am calling it a ground.

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[buickanddeere]

Mac it''s not ground . It's a neutral . Tell me what current is flowing through the wire and bar?
As for your panel it is antiquated and dangerous so change it out . Show me your electrical credentials .

 

[GLyford]

The town I grew up in had a dairy farmer getting 5-10v stray currents on a ground return system when the pole itself was used as the grounding conductor up to the overhead wire. It was enough to unsettle the cows and measurably affect production.

Solution was to make the utility use an actual grounding wire and rod at each pole along the street in front of the farm. A few years later, they did a routine pole replacement along that stretch, and pocketted the ground straps. He had to force them to do it all again.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Mac, pull a permit for the subpanel and ask for an inspection of your house panel. Ask questions from the inspector before you do or buy anything else. Then do what he says and get inspections at the stages he requests.