world trade center II (Shaikh Muin)

   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #1  

hess

Bronze Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2001
Messages
81
Shaikh Muin,

Thanks for the post. I believe strongly in the good will of man, regardless of race or religion. And, because we are human, we must learn to accept human frailty and forgive whenever possible.

Unfortunately, as we have seen, some acts do not deserve forgiveness and should be condemned by all.

hess
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #2  
World trade center II (glennmac)

<font color=blue>There is yet another intrinsic issue that is inadequately discussed: the nature of the Muslim religion in fostering terrorism.</font color=blue>

glennmac,

I think President Bush addressed your misconceptions quite emphatically this afternoon. You might want to read the following article: Bush urges respect for Muslims

“These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith and it’s important for my fellow Americans to understand that,” Bush said. “The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam.”

I don't think he could have been more clear and concise. He had even stronger words for those who would discriminate against Muslims.

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   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #3  
Re: World trade center II (glennmac)

I did not mean to imply that most terrorists, on a historical or worldwide scale, are Muslims. Nor did I mean to suggest that Muslim doctrine fosters terrorism. I have no conceptions or knowledge of Muslim religion one way or another. I was merely raising the point that there is a another difficult aspect to this whole horrible affair--namely, a supposed religious justification claimed by Bin Laden and some other Middle East terrorists.

I welcome the clarifications by Shaikh Muin. I would encourage his and similar groups to vigorously try to publicize these clarifications in the mass media. That will help avoid the kind of ignorant backlashes that Bush rightly condemns. I further encourage these Muslim organizations to try their best to inculcate these interpretations into the religious schooling of children in the Arab states. That will help avoid future recruits for future Svengali mullahs like Bin Laden, who are apparently successful in misinterpreting scripture to serve their political agendas.

Finally, I think this is one of the few topics that doesnt need any further discussion on TBN, so I am going to drop it.
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #4  
Re: World trade center II (glennmac)

Shaikh Muin, Thanks for your kind thoughts, and for taking the time to present this response. Best Wishes.
Glenn, This thread has gone all over the place. Do you mean you are droping the whole thing or just a part of it?

Ernie
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #5  
Re: World trade center II (glennmac)

Ernie, just speaking for myself, I dont think this is an appropriate time or forum to be debating interpretational points of Muslim religious texts, something few of us know anything about. Vigorous debate, and the kind of "devil's advocate" techniques that I and some other members sometimes use, could be misconstrued as anti-Muslim advocacy. At another time, I would welcome an intelligent discussion.

Obviously, we will be discussing many, many other aspects of this crisis here for a long time and I will participate.
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #6  
Re: World trade center II (glennmac)

glennmac,

With all due respect, after the events of last Tuesday, I don't think the devil needs another advocate. I would leave no room for doubt.

HucksBX.gif
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #7  
Shaikh Muin--

I spend many of my workdays with indendiary words and I log on to this community to think and learn about implements of cultivation, rather than implements of destruction. I have thus stayed out of the "political" discussions which have permeated--and occasionally polluted--this board in recent weeks. However, I am compelled to write to thank you for your thoughtful post. It would be simple enough for you to ignore these pages, given the jingoistic and in a few cases openly racist tone of a minority of the content. I do not agree with much of what Islam has become in those countries where it is used to sponsor state-imposed clampdowns on personal existence. But the fact that your faith enjoys the largest ranks of any in the world--20% of the world's population, according to islamicity.com--give it considerable legitimacy and moral authority, both of which derive from the peaceful message which lies at its core. That religion is perverted to political purposes should come as no surprise to the descendents of those who perpetrated the Crusades; to those who without question follow a Church which as a matter of secret doctrine gave aid and comfort to the Nazis in furtive hope that the Jews would be exterminated; or to those whose ancestors used religion to justify enslavement of other people. Politics, poverty, oppression, racism, and personal ambition have always driven the perversion of religion to sacriligeous ends, precisely because religion is so powerful a force for so many people. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, Islam is not immune.

Your willingness to join us to set out facts regarding the precepts of Islam may not make any difference to those few who prefer stereotypes and inflammation over facts, but I applaud your efforts.

Rick
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #9  
A conservative talk show host in Baltimore posted the following on his web site. It's source is not the religion that is Islam, but the political reality of those who abuse it. It is further food for thought:

Something to Say Commentary
rsmith@wbal.com
Before we go off half-cocked
Tuesday, September 18, 2001


(September 16, 2001)

In the many hours of discussing with my radio listeners the horrific events of last Tuesday morning, one jarring note emerges that shakes me to my boots. That is the number of callers who say we shoud respond to the slaughter of thousands of their fellow Americans by unleashing the unspeakable destructive power of nuclear weapons upon our enemies. At the top of the list is, of course, Afghanistan, which has been the haven for uberterrorist Usama Bin Laden.

I ask these people to stop and think about what they, in their understandable outrage, are advocating. An e-mailer sent me a piece from the West Coast that eloquently argues against such an action. Please read it.

Some important thoughts about Afghanistan...

(This commentary comes from Tamim Ansary, a writer and columnist in San Francisco, who comes from Afghanistan. )

"I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and ***** Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think ******. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?"

Tamim Ansary




Charlie Iliff
 
   / world trade center II (Shaikh Muin) #10  
I've been trying to find the right words to express my appreciation to Shaikh Muin for his most enlightening post on this board, but Rick Morgan found them for me. Thanks, Rick.

My ignorance on the whole Islamic religion and the Moslem world in general was greater than I imagined. What little I knew came from news stories which were sensational enough to warrant a headline. I see now that most of those stories focused on radical splinter groups who by no means represent the greater body.

Living in the S.F. Bay Area, I have worked with and been friends with a number of individuals from the Middle East. Each and every one of them was a remarkably kind and intelligent person, and I am sorry I have lost touch with them. The very thought that any of them might be the target of a hate crime as a result of the WTC tragedy is very disturbing to me. They openly love this country as much as any of us.

Like many of you, I have been trying to decide what I think the best course of action would be for our country at this point. I am saddened, outraged and looking for justice as much as the next guy, but before we go rushing into battle, I'm now thinking perhaps we should first educate ourselves and understand who we are and who we are not fighting.

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