Yet another dumb question from me.. Racing fuel???

[jcmseven]

To All,

I have just placed an order for a new 2011 John Deere Gator XUV 825i UTV. This will be replacing my Polaris 800 that I sold to a friend of mine. This is the second Gator I have bought recently as two months ago I bought an 825i for my dad. I noticed when picking up my father's Gator at the dealership that when started there was the distinct smell of racing fuel. My dealer said that racing fuel keeps better and is used at the factory to fill the tank 1/8th. This prompts me to ask whether I should consider running racing fuel or a mix thereof to achieve better performance, and whether it would do so--or conversely hurt the engine once mine arrives. In the owners' manual it specs unleaded fuel, but I can say from experience that my Ranger has run smoother and gets about 1-1.5 hours more use out of each tank, even when idling a good bit if I run premium unleaded over mid-range or standard 87. This is despite my Polaris manual not alluding to using this type fuel. I assume these small high compression engines appreciate whatever octane they can get, but I have also heard that octane is just anti-knock terminology and that any perceived performance enhancement is just chance or wishful thinking. Wondered if there were some petroleum engineering types out there who could comment on whether the extra bucks would result in any perceivable performance benefit.

John M

 

[brokenot]

Assuming your vehicle or equipment is in proper working order, you don't need fuel with any higher octane than what the manual recommends. You'll get plenty of opinions on this one I'm sure.

It is tough to argue with "hard evidence" though.....this site hawking racing gasoline for everyday use is good for some giggles. It's best to read it slowly for comprehension's sake. The sheer volume of the technical jargon and industry terminology has my head a-spinnin'.

Whitfield Oil Company: Benefits of 100 Octane Unleaded Racing Fuel

One of my favorite quotes from the site:

Another reason for the improvement in power is that the gasoline contains an oxygen compound. This is likely having higher barometric pressure which provides more oxygen. More oxygen means more horsepower. This is what it's all about. MORE POWER!

(And yes, I do know what they were trying to say. I just find the lack of proofreading funny.)

On a related note, one of the other guys at the shop constantly raves about the plethora of benefits premium fuel provides in his bone-stock-and-87-octane-recommended-grocery-getter. Funny thing is, the numbers he quotes for improved fuel economy and such have never been impressive enough, (i.e. realistic enough), for the guy to take a bet and prove it

 

[jcmseven]

I agree. I have always been an advocate of following spec. I assume the engineers have done their homework and more is not necessarily better. It did make me wonder, though, why JD puts racing fuel in their Gator 825I's before delivery though. It does not seem as though it would "keep" any better. Perhaps if the fuel degrades any, which seems unlikely to me, it may still offer decent performance. I know these are fairly high compression engines, so I wanted to know if there were any advantages (other than the nice smell).

John M

 

[brokenot]

It did make me wonder, though, why JD puts racing fuel in their Gator 825I's before delivery though.

I don't know why they'd be doing that either. Sounds to me like another example of someone upstairs holding the official "calling the shots" title and position....without necessarily having the know-how or practical experience to make those decisions.

Even if the racing fuel did provide whatever "protection" it is they're after, it's about the least cost-effective way to go about it.

Every engine-driven piece of equipment comes with instructions in the manual regarding recommended procedures to follow during a lay-up. I've yet to see one, (and I've read a lot of manuals!), that recommends you seek out a source for racing fuel when it comes to storage time. Many racing fuel manufacturers tout their products' ability to "store better" than regular gasoline, but they also say that it should be stored in a sealed container. Equipment fuel tanks are definitely not sealed containers.

So until I see a Gator manual specifying this practice, I'm pretty stuck on the idea that they're throwing money away. To take it a step further, I also think that what they're doing serves to muddy the waters for owners. There are already enough people that think there's some "secret" out there the manufacturers don't want them to know, which then leads to them questioning things that are in their manuals. So now a guy wanders into a dealership and smells racing fuel in a new Gator. The manual says nothing about using racing fuel......so what else isn't Deere telling me?

 

[SkyPup]

I've used VP Race Fuels for years in my road racing go-karts, great fuel and great service:

ATV racing fuel, go cart fuel, pwc fuel, snowmobile fuel

 

[DANOCHEESE]

Local lawn mower manufactur buys AVGAS, airplane fuel, to test fire each machine. The reason I have been told is that the mower may sit on a shelf for up to a year before someone buys it. The little bit of plain old gas left will turn into varnish and casue poor starts for the new owner requiring warranty work.

 

[Soundguy]

that's my take as well.. octane is just anti spark knock / ping addative. once you are there .. you are there.. not much else gained if 87 is fine.. 93 don't do much more. besides.. ethanol is a octane mod itself . running non ethanol av or racing gas may be done to slow down spoilage of the gas or collection of moisture after a test run.. that's my guess.

in theory.. you should get harder starts as the octane goes up as the fuel is less ignitable..

soundguy

 

[brokenot]

Local lawn mower manufactur buys AVGAS, airplane fuel, to test fire each machine. The reason I have been told is that the mower may sit on a shelf for up to a year before someone buys it. The little bit of plain old gas left will turn into varnish and casue poor starts for the new owner requiring warranty work.

The simplest solution is to not leave gas in it if it's going to sit....especially "for up to a year". That's ridiculous, and an equipment dealer ought to know better.

Not only that, but a manufacturer will not pay warranty claims submitted by a dealer for work that has been done to correct improper storage practices. We get asked all the time to go to bat for the customer and submit claims like that, but we always say no. Manufacturers lay out procedures in the product manuals for storage. If the end-user, (or the dealer!), makes the decision to drop the ball and not follow those recommendations, it is not up to the manufacturer to pay the bill.....just like it's not up to the manufacturer to pay the bill if a machine is used improperly. Simply stated, neither situation represents a defect in materials or workmanship....and that's what warranties cover.

 

[Transit]

Not all gas is the same; hi-octane fuel may be formulated with a higher BTU content thus yielding more power per gallon. It is not the octane rating of the fuel, its the energy in BTUs that counts. BTW, AV gas is rated on a different scale than auto fuel; AV gas is somewhat oily, a bigger molecule.
The oxygen additive may be nitro-methane.

 

[Soundguy]

keep in mind that most places that sell 3 octane levels of gas have 2 fuel tanbks and mix the 3rd..

soundguy

 

[DANOCHEESE]

THis is brand new equipment never taken out of the box from the manufactur they test run each piece. Then it goes to the dealer who has to get it running for the new cusotmer. The dealer say the carbs are gummed up. JSut what I was told. I know they buy the fuel.

 

[DANOCHEESE]

The simplest solution is to not leave gas in it if it's going to sit....especially "for up to a year". That's ridiculous, and an equipment dealer ought to know better.

Not only that, but a manufacturer will not pay warranty claims submitted by a dealer for work that has been done to correct improper storage practices. We get asked all the time to go to bat for the customer and submit claims like that, but we always say no. Manufacturers lay out procedures in the product manuals for storage. If the end-user, (or the dealer!), makes the decision to drop the ball and not follow those recommendations, it is not up to the manufacturer to pay the bill.....just like it's not up to the manufacturer to pay the bill if a machine is used improperly. Simply stated, neither situation represents a defect in materials or workmanship....and that's what warranties cover.

Also they test star these machiness by hooking up a fuel line to the Carb not dumping fuel in the tank This is a factory building lawn mowers. They build 6 differtn colors from the last report.

 

[Rod in Forfar]

While boating a few years back I spent some time with the owner of a 36' wooden Trojan cruiser who also owned a trucking company out of Dorval Airport. As hauling contractor for the Montreal Grand Prix he found himself each year with a pile of surplus 3 gallon containers of F1 fuel after the weekend. Nobody bothered to fly the stuff home to Europe, so he burned it in his V8's in the Trojan. He claimed that the engines ran very well on the hot fuel, but he had to have someone bring him replacement carburetors fairly often as the additives regularly ate the rubber parts.

Colourful guy. With femurs too long for fighter planes, he ended his flight career by leading his squad of Tutor jets under a bridge near Calgary. "Did you get caught?" "The second time," he quipped.

 

[brokenot]

Also they test star these machiness by hooking up a fuel line to the Carb not dumping fuel in the tank

Doesn't matter where they introduce the fuel into the system, it will say in the included manual(s) to not leave fuel sitting anywhere. If they heeded those recommendations, there would be no gumming up for the dealer or end-user to muck about with.

Many small engines have drain plugs right on the carb bowls. When stabilizer hasn't been used and/or moisture is a problem, often the engine won't fire up and run after sitting. Simply removing the drain plug on the bowl and letting some fuel into the bowl from the tank is often all it takes to get up and running again. The stinkiest/most contaminated fuel you'll find, (after sitting a while), in a gravity-fed small engine is in the bowl. The mowers you're talking about are likely not gravity-fed, but the fact remains that feeding the engine from another fuel source instead of the tank does nothing to assist it in being able to cope with being stored. If fuel is left in the bowl, there will be gunk to clean out of the bowl.

Attempting to "fix", (with the racing fuel), what would be essentially a non-issue if they followed accepted practices is a bit silly.

 

[shiver]

Go with what the manual says to use...

If you have some sort of engine damage a few months from now and you
take it back for warranty work, they can simply say no, you're not burning
what the manual states.

Although, I did a quick check to see what the manual states... couldn't find
a reference to the octane level.