You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really?

   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #211  
It was not loader force transfering the weight to the back as much as it was the loader putting some of the weight back that it had originally taken off.

This is a fine example of the semantics I was referring to. If you put back weight that 'had been taken off', you are adding weight where there isn't weight. I've never said that you are 'removing' weight, this whole discussion is about weight transfer. We're discussing a fixed weight tractor with a fixed load. Moving the lift point or moving the load to various positions will 'put back' or 'remove' weight from one point or another.

Maybe I just don't know how to talk the language of physics.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really?
  • Thread Starter
#212  
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #213  
Probably more alcohol , him and her than brains .
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #214  
So now getting back on topic - this thread was never supposed to be about the physics of ballast. I actually assumed that everyone was on the same page with the general principles.

I still want to know if anyone has actually "trashed" a front axle, or had premature wear issues, from running too little ballast on the 3pt?

We have one broken axle example so far but that sounds like ballast on the 3pt might not help if you decide to wedge the front end between the earth and a tree trunk and keep driving forward.

(That example would actually be fun to talk about in terms of physics because I can see how several multiples of the tractor's actual weight could be applied to the front axle.)

The real issue is that our tractors are front wheel assist, not true 4wd. The front axle shafts and ring and pinion are meant to only assist in propelling the tractor along the ground. If you lack adequate ballast and the rear tires are essentially in the air, and you push hard or perhaps back up a steep slope with a full bucket and the front axle doing all the work, that is when you snap an axle shaft or strip the ring gear or pinion. It is designed for a load of X and we are asking it to do 4X. Having adequate ballast helps keep the rear tires in the mix all the time for tractive force. The rear ring gear and pinion and shafts are much more robust.

Guys will break front axle shafts and gears, and we can tell them what they were doing when it broke. They were in some manner putting a huge load on the front axle, the front axle had superb traction, and they were trying to move the tractor in a extremely high load situation.

Example 1: Put the bucket under a stubborn stump, lift with the bucket until the back end is pretty much off the ground, now hammer forward and see what happens. Here are the options: 1) The stump gives way. 2) The engine dies. 3) The clutch slips. 4) The front tires spin. 5) Something breaks. No other options. And we have a lot of torque with our low gearing, so the engine generally won't die, clutches generally do not let go with low gearing, the front tires have maximum traction. Pop goes the ring gear, or if you are lucky, just a shaft. Now I'll admit that rear ballast doesn't solve "stupid", but it does help in many situations....but probably not in this stump scenario.

Example 2: Backing up a steep creek bank or pond bank with a fully loaded bucket and the rear tires essentially out of the mix. A full size commercial machine or a wheel loader can do this all day long. A CUT is somewhat at risk. Although this is a better scenario then the "stump" as there is still a chance that the front tires will spin before you have breakage. A gentle operator can do this with a CUT, but it does put a bunch of load on the front axle gears/shafts. In this scenario, rear ballast will definitely help save the front axle from gear/shaft damage.

I hope this was helpful. If we understand how and why things break, we tend to break things less often.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #215  
jokingly, a ways back, I said if you loaded the bucket enough the front wheels would come up...and you guys thought I was nutz !!!!! :)

458519d1456499145-you-need-balast-you-will-bobcat-dump-jpg
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #216  
A gentle operator can do this with a CUT, but it does put a bunch of load on the front axle gears/shafts. In this scenario, rear ballast will definitely help save the front axle from gear/shaft damage.

Thanks Dave - good to hear a Dealer opinion too. Per your comment above - do you mean like this kind of gentle operator? (Sorry Ted - I had to do it...) :D

ted tearing it up.jpg


I love the EA Wicked Grapples and I really enjoy watching Ted put these things through their paces. This is actually a good advertisement for Kubota as well! :eek:

**** Don't do this at home! **** Full video of the grapple work and testing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-2UB9k86BA
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #217  
Thanks Dave - good to hear a Dealer opinion too. Per your comment above - do you mean like this kind of gentle operator? (Sorry Ted - I had to do it...) :D

View attachment 458538

I love the EA Wicked Grapples and I really enjoy watching Ted put these things through their paces. This is actually a good advertisement for Kubota as well! :eek:

**** Don't do this at home! **** Full video of the grapple work and testing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-2UB9k86BA
Yeah, that happens to me on the 7520 too. You cant generate much force in reverse cuz you get "out of shape" too easy from a pull point in the bucket. It is the time to crunch the load forward abit to break it free.
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #218  
Thanks Dave - good to hear a Dealer opinion too. Per your comment above - do you mean like this kind of gentle operator? (Sorry Ted - I had to do it...) :D

View attachment 458538

I love the EA Wicked Grapples and I really enjoy watching Ted put these things through their paces. This is actually a good advertisement for Kubota as well! :eek:

**** Don't do this at home! **** Full video of the grapple work and testing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-2UB9k86BA
Oh yeah! That's the sort of gentle we hear about after an axle broke. I always wished we had a picture! That looks a little scary.

The first time I almost rolled a tractor was using forks and lifting a pallet of comp. shingles off a flatbed. I carefully tested and it lifted it and the rear tires were not showing air beneath them. I slowly backed away from the truck, then made the mistake of turning sharply while backing. That moved the centerline of one front tire contact patch back an inch or two and I started going over. I slammed the loader down and kept from rolling over, but it taught me a lesson. Now if I am feeling stupid like that, I'll lift the load, then drive the truck out, then lower the load. But then again I once got off the tractor to move the truck, and my svelte 225lbs missing from the seat caused the back tires to come up. I was simply ballast, and not much smarter than the average ballast at that point!
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #219  
Beating a dead horse, but might help newcomers understand why the counterbalance is desirable. Just another observation for purists who do a lot of loader work. Skidsteers are almost exclusively loader machines, and they seem to have a lot of built in counterweight behind the rear axle as well. Some more than others as below! (Even with a bucket this would be strongly rear weighted for maximum loader capacity.)

bobcat 2.jpg
bobcat 3.jpg
bobcat 4.jpg
bobcat 5.jpg



Full video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvRDr8s7Lmc
 
   / You need balast or you will trash your front axle!!!! really? #220  
Well, after reading this entire and somewhat convoluted thread, I've come to the conclusion that tiny tractors lack the meat in the front axle assembly to withstand much abuse.

Having said that I regularly haul single 4 x 6 round bales (about 1200 pounds each, across hay fields and load on trucks. I prefer one on the back spear and one or two on the front spears but oftentimes thats not doable. I've never had issue one with either of my FWA Kubota tractors which leads me to believe the large frame units are plenty robust enough to take the weight on the front axle..;.... and I'm rarely in FWA anyway. Most times, I'm in 2wd, but then both of my tractors I ordered with cast wheel weights. I'm not a believer in loading tires with any liquid on a FWA unit. Even when performing tillage operations, I experience very little wheel slippage.

Additionally, I'd never loft my rear wheels in any situation. With no suspension at all. it don't take much loft to roll a tractor. My balls aren't that large and my brain is obviously larger.
 

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