your thoughts please.

[aebsmithcreek]

My only complaint with the fords is tall gears, hard to find a low enough gear for some things, sherman transmision helps. I have never had an old massey. I am real partial to my old Farmall. I have a theory that any old tractor is a good tractor, because in most cases if it wasn't a good tractor it would have been parted or scrapped long ago. I like the old tractors better for farming chores, seams they don't make tractors under 50 hp for farming anymore.

i am a big ford fan even though i never owned one myself, but since i was thinking 40's to 50's models i would have to find a super deal on a ford because i may run a tiller eventualy and the couple of guys i know who have tried it with n's haven't been happy. i guess i could use the jd. i dont want to go as far as buyin trannies and re-gearin, just something to fix up and tinker with. not interested in show quality just a work horse, although i did run across a restored jd-a i sure did like but i cant afford to collect tractors, i'm gonna have to find one that somebody just got bored with or dont have use for that i can get a reasonable price on.

earl.

 

[Soundguy]

N's are not good tiller machines unless they have a howard rotovator tranny, or perhaps an everette trencher tranny. I wouldn't even prefer a tiller on a 860 with a 5spd. however one of the 59+ models with a 10spd would work, or a 65+ model with an 8spd would be fine.

soundguy

 

[aebsmithcreek]

My suggestion would be to let go of the fun of learning to fix a tractor and run your JD for the tasks you need. With what you plan to do I doubt you'll break it. You can save a heap of time and money with my plan. Less fun though...
Maybe your fun could be in hooking up the flat belt drive as you said.
Jim

that is probably very much in my best interest Jim, especialy since i keep tellin my wife to keep in the back of her mind that either or both of us could find ourselves unemployed anytime now if we dont by some miracle see this economy take an upturn pretty quick, but you know how it is when ya get a hankerin for somethin, it hard to put it aside sometime.

earl.

 

[Jerry/MT]

i have been wanting a older tractor for quite awhile but really just dont know enough about them to feel comfortable buying one that would be my only tractor to rely on. now that i have a newer diesel with less than 900 hrs on it to rely on and have convinced the better half it would be a good learning experiance for the future needs of the JD i would like to have an old tractor to learn some of the skills and techniqes i have been reading about here. based on the following what would you reccomend.
my skill level-have worked on mechanichal systems such as a/c compressors rebuilding top ends, basic wrenching we all did coming up cause we couldnt pay someone. i am fair with stick,mig,and brazing, i own the old standby lincoln tombstone 225 a/c and have access to a miller trailblazer w/ hi freq box and tig torch though i'm not good with it. general mechanical work on conveyors, hydro gate operators,pumps,pretty varied array of electrical componets,motor starters,etc. i would describe myself as having more skill than knowledge or confidence with tractors

would like to have diesel but may go with gas if benefits are great enough.
parts readily available and preferably economical ut i know thats a stretch
simple and basic-translate-easy for the beginer to work on:thumbsup:
hyd lift 3pt/pto
it would be used for small ag ops, harrows,plows, cultivating, hilling and i have a planter i might use on it.
any suggestions will be appreciated.

thanks.

earl.

It sounds like you want "using machine" to supplement you newer tractor. It also sounds like you're handy enough with tools to do the routine stuff that needs doing on an older machine.
Before I go any further, let me tell you I am biased to the xx00 and the xx10 Fords, particularly the latter. They are rugged reliable machines; the 10 Series even have independent pto;'s and some have remotes. (We own an '82 4610 that did all the heavy lifting on my ranceh untill we a bought a used NH TD95D last fall.) The 4610 is still in the stable and does the appropriate work for a tractor of it's size and type. I also have a '54 Ferguson TO-30 that I pull my irrigation pipe trailer with it, a plow snow, and disk and rip the wife's 40 x 160 garden with. I wouldn't be without the NH or the Ford. While I have a sentmental attachment to the Ferguson, it grows weaker every day. It does not have live pto or live hydraulics and is just not versatile enough for our needs on the ranch. it was designed as a primary tillage machine back in the '40's( plow, disk, and harrow) and I'm no farmer. It, like the other tractors we have is reliable, starts easilly, and runs well.


My recommendation to you is something with a diesel (common fuel for both tractors plus fuel economy) live pto (as a minuimum)and live hydraulics with remotes OR the capabilty of easily adding remotes. The HP depends on the size of the implements you have or want to use. if you want to use it with a loader, I'd recommend 4WD (stonger axle and traction with a bucket load in mud).

I'm strongly considering selling my TO-30 and getting a Ford 2810 or a MF 230, etc. It will do all I am doing with the TO-30 plus give me the ability to safely do things that are diffiicult with the Ferguson. There are enough old duffers around that want to play with antique tractors and go to parades, etc that I won't have too much difficulty getting my money out of it.

I know that's not a specific recommendation but you can find what I call a second or third generation tractor( I define first generation as the Fergusons, the N series Fords , the non-live pto non-live hydraulics machines; the second generation would be the xx00 Ford's etc; I'd call the xx10 Series Fords, etc the third generation) it would probably meet your needs.
You'll note I did not mention JD. That's because the only experience I have with them is the '59 435D and it was a good solid 2nd generation 30 hp machine. They have so many models and I am just not that familiar with them. I'm sure there are some models that will fit you needs but they tend to be priced higher than the other comparable machines I mentioned and I personally (my opinion) do not see the value versus price on them. JD has a big presence where I live and NH is trying to get back in. Whether they suceed or not remains to be seen. Since I do my own workthat's not a big point with me nor is it worth the big mark up versus other first line machines.

Opinions are like belly buttons; everybody's got one. This is mine for what ever it's worth.

 

[kaferhaus]

You just good some good advice.... I'd stay away from the early Fords, Massey's etc. and get something with a live PTO, hydraulics etc. Stay away from the newer ones that have all the electronic gizmos on them too... just expensive stuff to break that you don't "need".

And I agree that most anything with the name "Deere" on it is going to be overpriced vs most any other equally capable tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

I'd stay away from the early Fords, Massey's etc. and get something with a live PTO, hydraulics etc. .

let's put that comment into perspective with the facts......

Ford got live hyds in late 1952 as a standard option. Unless you deleted hyds, all models + got it.

In late 1954 live pto was available as an option.

In 1959, independent pto was an option.

i can't speak for Massey Ferguson, but suspect they had a similar timeline. with live power... in their early line of machines.

soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

let's put that comment into perspective with the facts......

Ford got live hyds in late 1952 as a standard option. Unless you deleted hyds, all models + got it.

In late 1954 live pto was available as an option.

In 1959, independent pto was an option.

i can't speak for Massey Ferguson, but suspect they had a similar timeline. with live power... in their early line of machines.

soundguy

By the mid 50's you would be hard pressed to find new Masseys WITHOUT live power. Same applies pretty much throughout the industry.

 

[Jerry/MT]

let's put that comment into perspective with the facts......

Ford got live hyds in late 1952 as a standard option. Unless you deleted hyds, all models + got it.

In late 1954 live pto was available as an option.

In 1959, independent pto was an option.

i can't speak for Massey Ferguson, but suspect they had a similar timeline. with live power... in their early line of machines.

soundguy

While I don't disagree with your time line, in my opinion, you'd be hard pressed to find a large number of those mid- to late-50's tractors that have live pto and live hydraulics simply because they were extra cost options that most farmers couldn't afford or didn't feel they needed and so were unwilling to pay for.

By the 60's these options plus power steering started to become standard equipment. The probabliity of finding a model with those features is much greater when you look at tractors that were produced in mid-'60's through mid-'80's.

The other factor is simply that the majority (but not all) of the late 50's machinery is plum worn out and unless you are some one that's looking for a hobby in retirement, etc,, they are going to take time and money to turn into a reliable working machine. Sure you can find the parts, new or used but it takes time to track that stuff down, you have to go pick it up or spend an arm and a leg to go get it, spend the time refurbishing the used parts, yadda, yadda, yadda. Like I say, if that's your hobby, then go for it. It's all a matter of how much your time is worth. Most people that have small farms and ranches and are still working don't have the time or don't want to spend all their time fixing stuff.
the other factor is just finding a good machine. Here in Montana, no body quits on a machine until is just plum wore out and if they have a good machine they want above market for it. I had to go down to Southern New Mexico to find the TD95D/820TL loader with 93 hrs on it. A similar tractor in blue was $12k more locally than I paid for my machine and the green ones were even more expensive. If I was down in prime farm country (like the Wilamette Valley of Oregon, I'd have a lot more choice. So that's another factor in finding good used machinery.

Just my opinions.

 

[Soundguy]

While I don't disagree with your time line, in my opinion, you'd be hard pressed to find a large number of those mid- to late-50's tractors that have live pto and live hydraulics simply they were extra cost options that most farmers couldn't afford or didn't feel they needed and so were unwilling to pay for. Just my opinions.

Uh.. In late 1952, ford moved the hyd pump from the belly to the side of the engine. That was for the NAA

All fords after that had live hyds, unless you specifically deleted the hyds.

While I do see a RARE economy ford every now and then has has a deleted pto, and even rarer a deleted hyds system.. they are teh exception BY FAR.

the standard naa, 640, 650, 660, 840, 850, 860, etc.. etc. all had live hyds.

Any ford with a *6* in it's 3 digit model number from 55-62 or a 5 speed from 63-64 had live pto Models with *8* or *7* from 59-62 had independent pto, and all SOS till the end of the line had it.

a 4spd non live pto but WITH live hyds was a pretty common ford.. ie.. 640 or 840.. however.. there are PLENTY of *6* models.

Incedentally, power steering was an option available with the 00 seieries which started in late 54.

I see more 00 series fords with power steering than I see 00 series fords without hyds.. and ps was for sure much more less common on the early units.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

The other factor is simply that the majority (but not all) of the late 50's machinery is plum worn out .

some is, some isn't. Same can be said of any machinery.,

the landscape co across from my office trades mowers every 3 years.. as they ar eplum wore out.

get a pice of equipment that has been maintained or repaired.. or repair it yourself and it will be fine.

Take an easy to work on antique or classic. just about every part on them is repairable, replaceable or renewable with wear parts. pretty much everything except the bulk of the castings. ( some castings ( forgeings really, I suspect ) available as new. plenty of castings available..used

,, they are going to take time and money to turn into a reliable working machine. Sure you can find the parts, new or used but it takes time to track that stuff down, you have to go pick it up or spend an arm and a leg to go get it, spend the time refurbishing the used parts, yadda, yadda, yadda.
.

Maybee in the 80's that was true.. however now? info and parts are a mousestroke away. Last antique I refurbished. I had it home, and looked it over, and -THAT NIGHT - placed 4 orders, 2 online parts houses, 1 email to a guy I know who sells used parts, and another in a seperate email to another guy I know that sells used parts. The next day, on the way home from work, I hit the TSC and grabbed my paint supplies and whatnot.

Parts for these antiques are by and far WAY cheaper than newer models. I replaced a single hyd part on my 2000 NH 7610s that cost more than the entire refurb cost of the last tractor I did.

At work, dealing with cat and JD equipment. It's not uncommon to buy parts that cost MORE than an entire classic tractor, and hve it arrive in a box a ups man can carry

When I rebuilt the hyds on 2 of my fords recently.. it's kind of nice that an 11/16 wrench takes out all the bolts ont he top and bottom hyd cover and pump.. can do a full hyds overhaul on an 8n top cover and pump.. new wear parts for under 300$ and about 7hrs work start to finish... hard to get much easier or cheaper to work on.

pump for my 4600, 5000 or 7610s is =way= more spendy.

soundguy

 

[Jerry/MT]

some is, some isn't. Same can be said of any machinery.,

the landscape co across from my office trades mowers every 3 years.. as they ar eplum wore out.

get a pice of equipment that has been maintained or repaired.. or repair it yourself and it will be fine.

Take an easy to work on antique or classic. just about every part on them is repairable, replaceable or renewable with wear parts. pretty much everything except the bulk of the castings. ( some castings ( forgeings really, I suspect ) available as new. plenty of castings available..used


Maybee in the 80's that was true.. however now? info and parts are a mousestroke away. Last antique I refurbished. I had it home, and looked it over, and -THAT NIGHT - placed 4 orders, 2 online parts houses, 1 email to a guy I know who sells used parts, and another in a seperate email to another guy I know that sells used parts. The next day, on the way home from work, I hit the TSC and grabbed my paint supplies and whatnot.

Parts for these antiques are by and far WAY cheaper than newer models. I replaced a single hyd part on my 2000 NH 7610s that cost more than the entire refurb cost of the last tractor I did.

At work, dealing with cat and JD equipment. It's not uncommon to buy parts that cost MORE than an entire classic tractor, and hve it arrive in a box a ups man can carry

When I rebuilt the hyds on 2 of my fords recently.. it's kind of nice that an 11/16 wrench takes out all the bolts ont he top and bottom hyd cover and pump.. can do a full hyds overhaul on an 8n top cover and pump.. new wear parts for under 300$ and about 7hrs work start to finish... hard to get much easier or cheaper to work on.

pump for my 4600, 5000 or 7610s is =way= more spendy.

soundguy

I could be wrong, but I thought the OP wanted to "work the tractor" not "work on the tractor".

 

[Soundguy]

you can wor or work on any tractor.

my 'new' one a year 2000 model, is down -FAR- more than ANY classic I own.

One of the roughest tractors i own,.. and auction find worker.. I didn't even refurb.

i loded it's tires, welded acrack in the bucket, changed it's oil, adjusted it's brakes, and changed out the worst of it's hoses.. did that all pretty much while it was still on the trailer from where I hauled it home from the auction.

put it to 'work' immediatly after that.

actually one of my cheapest tractors.. have LESS than 3000$ in it for purchase and fluids and hoses, and it's never fialed to start and run. I use it to move large hay rounds.. IE.. 5x5 rolls that are too heavy for my 1-arm loaders.. which are more for 4x5.

as I said before.

get any good, well maintained machine, or fix it yourself and maintain it, and it will be good to go.

I don't find myself having to re fix and refix my classics once i go over them. I get em, fix em, and use em. once fixed.. they tend to stay fix, unless by regualr course of work something brakes or needs maintenance.. and that's gonna happen new or old. a blown tire can happen on a new machine or an old one. same with a shear bolt in a mower.. or any of the lil things you expect to have to wrench on every now and then.

I can buy a barn full of classics for the cost of a new one. or I can buy half a barn full of classics, refurb them all to top shape and use them.. for the price of a new one too.

new does not = never having to work on it. in fact.. I've overwhelmingly found new = needs more work and breaks more often, and with more expensive parts....


soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

The utter simplicity of some older tractors makes them a BETTER candidate for dependability and ease of an "Average Joe" to maintain it properly. Much of the newer tractors require a factory trained technician with a shop full of specialized tools, rather than a shade tree mechanic with a pocket full of hand tools. In many instances, the former isn't in the budget OR in the time allotted.

I have old tractors, not so old tractors, almost new tractors and a couple very new tractors....Without question, the most reliable, easiest to KEEP reliable, and my #1 "go to tractor" is 40+ years old, and 3rd oldest overall that I own. This tractor has been well maintained since new, painted and "spruced up" but has NEVER had any major work done on it. (Still has 40 year old clutch...) 2 oldest are in line to be restored, at which point, they'll be every bit as dependable as any others I own.

Give me tractors from the 60's and 70's....FAR more reliable. FAR less complicated. And FAR less expensive to own and operate.

 

[aebsmithcreek]

I could be wrong, but I thought the OP wanted to "work the tractor" not "work on the tractor(quote)

what i want is a old tractor that has a sound drive train but needs some attention to be up to speed. something to wrench on but not a total rebuild if that makes sense.

earl.

 

[Soundguy]

I could be wrong, but I thought the OP wanted to "work the tractor" not "work on the tractor(quote)

what i want is a old tractor that has a sound drive train but needs some attention to be up to speed. something to wrench on but not a total rebuild if that makes sense.

earl.

that's about what I had in mind.

find one that already starts and runs good, and really.. deos everything it's soposed to do as is, but perhaps needs a hose or 2 replaced. maybee a tube or tire.. or minor things. new switch or headlamp.. some paint addition and rust removal.. etc.. etc. plus a tune up.

plenty of those out there. that auction find ford 850 I have is now 56 ys old. as i said.. I dropped about 200$ in it doing a full fluid and filter service on it's loader, power steering and engine and rear sumps.. that was the bulk of the 200$.. just shear gallons of oil..... maybee 3 hoses and 1 hose fitting adapter.. that's about it.. oh.. and I added some water and rv antifreeze tot he tires, and used a big screwdriver to adjust the brakes, recrimped some wires under the dash.. and added a 2$ indicator lamp to the dash to excite the 3 wire alternator at 400 rpm, vs 1200 rpm as it was wired 1 wire when i got it.

past that.. it's still in original ugley, scratched and faded paint.

hasd lots of welding on the superior utility loader but works great... likes to jump out of 3rd gear when going down hil and you dump the throttle.. but a spring from the dash cowling looped over takes car of that. besides.. moving big hay.. I never use anything but 1or 2 and reverse anyway.. 3 is too fast for a bumpy pasture carrying 1000+ # on a front spear..

tractor was LESS than 3000$.. in fact.. less than 2700$ for a 45 hp machine with decent heavy laoder, good tires, power steering, etc.. no real bad leaks.. just a bit ugly..

soundguy

 

[Jerry/MT]

I could be wrong, but I thought the OP wanted to "work the tractor" not "work on the tractor(quote)

what i want is a old tractor that has a sound drive train but needs some attention to be up to speed. something to wrench on but not a total rebuild if that makes sense.

earl.

I stand corrected.
I didn't say don't buy a used tractor, I said by a second or third generation tractor that has desireable features like live pto, live hydraulics and power steering.
Yes they were available in the mid fifties but the odds on finding "good ones" of that era are slimmer than in finding tractors that were made in the '60's and '80's. That was my point. Sorry if my opinion offended anyone.

 

[Jerry/MT]

The utter simplicity of some older tractors makes them a BETTER candidate for dependability and ease of an "Average Joe" to maintain it properly. Much of the newer tractors require a factory trained technician with a shop full of specialized tools, rather than a shade tree mechanic with a pocket full of hand tools. In many instances, the former isn't in the budget OR in the time allotted.

I have old tractors, not so old tractors, almost new tractors and a couple very new tractors....Without question, the most reliable, easiest to KEEP reliable, and my #1 "go to tractor" is 40+ years old, and 3rd oldest overall that I own. This tractor has been well maintained since new, painted and "spruced up" but has NEVER had any major work done on it. (Still has 40 year old clutch...) 2 oldest are in line to be restored, at which point, they'll be every bit as dependable as any others I own.

Give me tractors from the 60's and 70's....FAR more reliable. FAR less complicated. And FAR less expensive to own and operate.

I think that's what i recommended in my intitial post.

 

[Soundguy]

I think that's what i recommended in my intitial post.

It is.

We are all hitting around the same basic concepts.. just presenting them differently..

IMHO.. the OP is benefitting from our years of BTDT, and all the opinions expressed therin.

soundguy

 

[aebsmithcreek]

I stand corrected.
I didn't say don't buy a used tractor, I said by a second or third generation tractor that has desireable features like live pto, live hydraulics and power steering.
Yes they were available in the mid fifties but the odds on finding "good ones" of that era are slimmer than in finding tractors that were made in the '60's and '80's. That was my point. Sorry if my opinion offended anyone.
09-12-2011 12:18 PM

no offense taken at all Jerry, SoundGuy nailed it, i'm just a green horn trying to learn lessons easily that you guys learned by trial and error. one thing i have found already is i'm gonna have to get versed in tractor nomenclature, alot of the terms are unfamiliar to me. i'm ashamed to admit it but i never heard the term live hydraulics until i read it here and alot of the other terms are greek to me so i'm startin from scratch. all the input is good info for me and very much appreciated as well.

earl.

 

[Soundguy]

live power means that they are available when the engine is running.. ie.. live hyds are available if engine is running.. some older machines had to have pto engaged and no foot on the clutch for hyds.. etc..

live pto can refer to independent or 2 stage clutch setups.. IE.. setups where the drivetrain can be clutched independent or seperate from the pto. example.. mowing and you want to stop forward motion but not the blades.. or bailing hay.. bailer starts to plug up so you need to stop feeding it via moving forward.. but need the pto to keep spinning so it can clear..

soundguy