Z Force 48 Difficult Starting

[GBHRPS]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This older Z Force 48 has had several years of difficult starting cold or hot. I don't recall having this issue when I first purchased the unit used. What happens is that you turn the key to start and get a click, turn it off, turn to start and get another click, turn it off, turn to start and get another click, turn it off, and turn it on and the starter turns and fires up the motor with little fanfare.

Its almost as if the starter has stopped at a bad spot on the armature, and then after several part rotations it finally sits at a place where it has enough magnetic pull to turn the crank. The tractor never fails to start, it just takes 5 or 6 key clicks before it catches and turns the crank.

I also own an older JD 175 Hydro (14 HP Kawasaki) that suffered the exact same issue about 10 years into its life. JD had a simple factory kit to solve the issue which cost about $30 way back when. It was a simple automotive relay, a relay socket and about 3 or 4 wires that went to the ignition switch, a ground and the starter as I recall, that totally solved the issue. That old JD is now some 30 years old and turns over and starts first time every time.

Is there a similar solution to my Z Force 48? If so, I'll just copy the JD relay add on and see what occurs. And no, there is nothing wrong with my battery or its cables, ignition switch etc.

Gene

 

[JohnBuffaloMN]

Is there a solenoid on the starter? And yes, armatures can go bad too.

 

[radios1]

that really sounds like a bad solenoid.. think of it as a switch, when it works properly, the battery is connected to the starter, cranking the engine. when it don't work properly, it just clicks, since it's not making the connection between the battery and the starter!..

 

[tomplum]

If it is a Kohler engine, tehy have upgraded some of the starter motors so that they make 20% more torque. Post or look up your ENGINE numbers to see. If that's the case , don't buy a fish brand starter- get a Kohler.

 

[GBHRPS]

Ladies and gentlemen,

The zero turn was repowered before I bought it with a 26 HP B&S twin (originally the mower came with a 22 HP B&S twin)

 

[radios1]

Ladies and gentlemen,

The zero turn was repowered before I bought it with a 26 HP B&S twin (originally the mower came with a 22 HP B&S twin)

that's good, now measure the voltage going to the starter solenoid, if less than 11 volts, there's not enough voltage to engage the solenoid, if you have at least that voltage, then the solenoid went bad, they aren't high quality.. remember that the tractor went many years without a problem, what may have happened is either there is a bad connection somewhere, or the solenoid itself went bad.. copper wires don't get corroded inside the plastic covering.. and also, if the starter had a bad winding, it would never start, since it can't turn to a good winding.. the start kits bypass a problem in the wiring caused by a bad connection.. not that the wiring should be at least 14 Gauge, it SHOULD, but the existing wiring worked fine for years..

 

[GBHRPS]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Took all the electrics from the unit today and cleaned every switch, ground and connection and reassembled. Tested the starter solenoid and it is good. Result is no change, but the starter is partially turning a bit and then stalls. After several repeats of this the engine fires up. I'm starting to think that I have to reset the engine valves, as the starter appears to be fighting compression. It'll be a day or two before I can get back to it, so I'll keep you posted.

 

[Bob_Bainbridge]

Adjusting the valves shouldn't make any difference. If the valves are not seating there would be less compression making it crank faster. If they are seating you should have the normal compression which the starter should be able to handle. If you have a multimeter check the battery voltage both at the battery and at the starter. If there is much difference between the battery and starter readings one of the battery cables may be bad. If the voltage at both the starter and battery drops more than a volt or so, the battery may be bad or the starter is drawing too much current.

Bob B.

 

[100 td]

The reason the relay was produced as a kit, was to fix the bad contacts in the IGN switch and safety switches which create voltage drop to the solenoid coil. If your starter motor is turning slowly, then it is either limited by voltage drop, low battery volts, internal brush/armature/commutator problems or by physical resistance of what it is trying to turn. Most smaller engines like this have an automatic decompressor on the camshaft when starting, if it has worn out and you are getting full compression, you will have trouble starting. So you may have to replace the camshaft if this is the problem with your engine.

 

[1010]

Make sure the ground wire is clean and tight. The connection on the wire can also give problems also. The hot wire also make sure terminal is good on each end.

Ask around and see if you have a starter repair/rebuild shop they can test the starter possibly.

Put some jumper cables on it with a hot battery and see if it clicks repeatedly before starting.

 

[radios1]

you can try using a jumper cable from battery + to the coil wire of the solenoid. you can also try using jumper cables directly to the starter. just to see what is going on.. I'll bet you have a bad solenoid, since it starts after multiple attempts, they DO wear out..

 

[tomplum]

On a Briggs Intek, adjusting the valve lash makes ALL the difference. If the lash is excessive, the compression release as it is ground into the cam is not effective. Google Briggs Intek twin valve adjusting for step by step. Basically though, with the piston 1/4" past the intake valve closing- the valves get set on that cylinder .004 intake and .006 exhaust.

 

[radios1]

On a Briggs Intek, adjusting the valve lash makes ALL the difference. If the lash is excessive, the compression release as it is ground into the cam is not effective. Google Briggs Intek twin valve adjusting for step by step. Basically though, with the piston 1/4" past the intake valve closing- the valves get set on that cylinder .004 intake and .006 exhaust.

the ops engine doesn't even try to start, he has to make the solenoid click about 5-6 times before it starts.. so it's not a problem with the compression release.

 

[GBHRPS]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Pulled every switch, relay, the solenoid, ground wires and connections on the entire mower. Cleaned, wire brushed, used electrical contact cleaner spray in the switches, and after the fluid evaporated reinstalled it all.

Now I have the same symptoms as before BUT ... the crank rotates just a bit with each start cycle of the ignition switch. Three or 4 repetitions and the unit fires up and runs strong. I ran out of time today, but I'll readjust the valves tomorrow and I believe I'll have the problem solved. It appears that I somehow had two small issues that were tag teaming the engine, an electrical resistance somewhere that is now corrected (I hope) and a valve or two out of adjustment.

I'll post my results when I can get back at it.

 

[Richard001]

. copper wires don't get corroded inside the plastic covering.. ..

Radios,

While you have good suggestions to trouble shoot the problem, your comment about corrosion of the copper wire inside of the jacket is not true.

Unless each wire in the cable is individually tinned, the corrosion will follow the copper stands down in the cable.

Richard

 

[radios1]

Radios,

While you have good suggestions to trouble shoot the problem, your comment about corrosion of the copper wire inside of the jacket is not true.

Unless each wire in the cable is individually tinned, the corrosion will follow the copper stands down in the cable.

Richard

I've only seen that severe corrosion on boats used in saltwater, where the copper cable was immersed in salt water, on land, I've seen a mild corrosion travelling quite a few inches, but not deep enough to corrode the copper so much that it reduces it's current carrying capacity.. unless you cut a cable, and try to put a new connector on, then you have to thoroughly clean the copper where you want to put the connector.. corrosion so severe that it reduces a let's say, 14 gauge copper wire to an 18 gauge inside the plastic insulation would be very rare on land, indeed..

 

[GBHRPS]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Sorry for the late update, but family issues intervened.

Anyhow, the hard start issue is no more! Turn the key, she cranks and fires up instantly.

Thanks to all who helped to get to the solution! Much appreciated.

Gene

 

[radios1]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Sorry for the late update, but family issues intervened.

Anyhow, the hard start issue is no more! Turn the key, she cranks and fires up instantly.

Thanks to all who helped to get to the solution! Much appreciated.

Gene

so, what did the trick?. so it can help others..

 

[GBHRPS]

radios1,

As I stated in my very last post, I suspected that the valves needed adjusting, and that is what finally solved the issue.

The engine on this Z Force is positioned such that the twin valve covers point to the rear of the tractor. There is very little clearance for putting anything for measuring (screwdriver) into the cylinders in order to find TDC, because of the twin fuel tanks being so close to the spark plugs.

After several failed attempts at adjusting, I finally gained the clearance needed by removing 3 of the 4 bolts securing the fuel tanks, and then swung the tanks sideways to open up the space. Once I could accurately find TDC with the screwdriver, and then allowed the crank rotation to indicate a further 1/4 inch of piston travel down, the valves were set to tolerance and everything reinstalled. The engine fired right up from the first turn of the key.

Gene

 

[radios1]

very good it's fixed!..