tractor hacking - JD's

[Wagtail]

That's another laughable part of this "article".

An owner of a US$90,000+* tractor(s)is going to entrust his/her investment/livelihood to an untested or verified, off the internet, hacked programme?

C'mon, pull the other one Mate!**


* and that's on the conservative side.

** Aussie-ism for "unbelievable!"

 

[AKfish]

That's another laughable part of this "article".

An owner of a US$90,000+* tractor(s)is going to entrust his/her investment/livelihood to an untested or verified, off the internet, hacked programme?

C'mon, pull the other one Mate!**


* and that's on the conservative side.

** Aussie-ism for "unbelievable!"

VICE news is a leading edge news organization affiliated with HBO. You might be familiar with them... Maybe not. Nonetheless, they have been granted interviews with leaders across the globe on topics that other major news organizations are either frightened of the inherent danger or intimidated by the vested economic interests of the global corporate powers.

As others have indicated this is a simmering issue that many are challenging above the radar as well as below the line of sight. Simply because it has not affected you directly, does not make this issue any less valid...

I have invested hundreds of dollars for EACH of the John Deere tractors that I currently own. Parts manuals, Technical Repair Manuals as well as CD versions. When you factor in JD balers, mowers, tedders, rakes, etc., the economic hurdle gets only higher.

As you move up in tractor size and cost; the complexity and expense of the diagnostic equipment increases exponentially!

Many owners only want to know what the code means! The majority of the diagnostic codes are NOT in the Owner's Manual! Is the problem just a bad switch or a small relay or faulty sensor...? Do I have to haul the tractor to the dealer? And wait... Or do I wait for the tech to show up and then wait again for him to come back 'cause he needs such and such?

Or I could replace the sensor myself...

And do you really believe that the farmer's elsewhere in the world are really, really just fine with Mama Deere and AGCO and Lamborghini holding all the controls to their livelihoods?

I might withhold my judgement on that question...

 

[Wagtail]

AK Mate, I've never really heard of these VICE people before. If they can get the 'big' interviews then, as I've said before, why the silence from all of the other big tractor manufacturers? It just doesn't pass the "smell test" with me. Something's missing... or I've got far too much time on my hands <as I adjust my aluminium-foil hat to the side for a more jaunty look>

I understand wanting to know about the codes and what they mean. There are enough threads here from people asking just that; and they're not just JD owners.

As to the rest of the world? I honestly haven't seen it. The really big Ag tractors/combines/related equipment/implements are getting so advanced that they're beginning to resemble large aircraft in their sophistication; now that technology is trickling down to where it's showing up in the CUTs & SCUTs.

[Note: I realise the next thing I'll write is 'in the extreme'] If you own/fly a 787 Dreamliner and you have a computer indicated problem/fault, wouldn't you call Boeing instead of mucking around with it yourself?

 

[adventure bob]

First Vice isn't affiliated with HBO, they're owned by HBO. While they purport to be cutting edge they are still big media. While I appreciate their liberal stance and some actual reporting, its still slanted and controlled by their corporate owners, Just because they do stories on weed, doesn't make them cutting edge.
Big ag farmers don't give a rats what the code means as long as the tractor is meeting its expected cost per acre. When you have 5-10 tractors in the $100-$200K your not doing the maint; you either have a maint facility in house or you contract it out. Again, if you want real coverage of real farming issues, watch more RFD TV and some Machinery Pete as opposed to a mainstream media. Its all about cost per acre. What the software is doing is irrelevant, as long as its doing what they paid for it to do.

 

[AKfish]

First Vice isn't affiliated with HBO, they're owned by HBO. While they purport to be cutting edge they are still big media. While I appreciate their liberal stance and some actual reporting, its still slanted and controlled by their corporate owners, Just because they do stories on weed, doesn't make them cutting edge.
Big ag farmers don't give a rats what the code means as long as the tractor is meeting its expected cost per acre. When you have 5-10 tractors in the $100-$200K your not doing the maint; you either have a maint facility in house or you contract it out. Again, if you want real coverage of real farming issues, watch more RFD TV and some Machinery Pete as opposed to a mainstream media. Its all about cost per acre. What the software is doing is irrelevant, as long as its doing what they paid for it to do.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.... We all have one. I have watched RFD-TV for years. As well as Machinery Pete - he posts regularly on Agtalk.

I have yet to see any RFD-TV correspondents in Syria or Siberia or Somalia or even Fairbanks. VICE has been there. I must have missed the RFD-TV crew.. (And, I haven't seen correspondents from the major networks in most of the places that VICE covers across the globe. Dangerous, horrible places and horrendous problems!)

I will grant you that the very biggest operators are not overly concerned (at least for now..) about the software/firmware court cases. But, even their time may yet come...

It's the smaller, (emerging - trying to expand) and mid-sized operators that are most affected. Those folk's aren't short-term lease operator's. They purchase to own; and begin to chafe under the software leash that the manufacturers have in place.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I like the "I was going to buy a Mercedes and they are the closest dealer, but because of this proprietary firmware and software nonsense, I bought a Hyundai (sp?) instead" . Like money was never a factor.

 

[vsteel]

You're absolutely right they recoup the cost on sales price. However they're not recouping millions in a single year to pay off the development. The company is essentially loaning their development arm the millions to go develop the technology. They wont recoup that cost in any short amount of time so JD protects the crap out of tech over the payoff period. My bet is that the payoff is 5-7 years, pure and simply business math. And you can do your own maintenance on commercial AG JD. To say you cant change an air filter is strictly asinine, same thing with fluids and other maint. However, in most commercial ag, they have contracts with field service companies that work when the tractors aren't. They do everything from maint to repair.

They know the development cost with the price of the tractor before they even start the project. There are 1000s of hours of this kind of planning before they even start, not to mention the code they create I would guarantee that it is modular so they are not making code for an individual tractor or very little. They have a ROI (return on investment) on the entire project and each piece of the project with projected sales and life of the product.

I wasn't saying that you can't change your own air filter, I was trying to give an analogy that would cause the general public to be enraged. I wasn't saying that that you can't do it today. Though if a major car manufacturer thought they could get away with it they would do it.

Sure you can do maintenance on your machine, my family has one of those 120 hp machines with a brain. They throw a code and you have to have the dealer come and tell you what it is. Can you buy a code reader, sure you could get one if you want to really lay out bank because they want to control who can work on the machines, IF they will sell it do you. They want to keep the people who can work on the machine down so they can reward the people who carry inventory.

Don't forget that sure you can fix something yourself but then there are a lot of cases where you have to clear codes or do resets or calibrations that you HAVE to have the code reader for. I know when we do repairs this is something we run into and you get stuck without a code reader. The farmers are not trying to redo the engine emission code, they want to be able to fix their machines. Having the ability for farmers to read codes and reset item and do calibrations is trivial and still have the emissions code and secrete sauce locked down. Trivial.

Let's not pretend that they are doing this because they want to help the EPA, that is the banner they hide behind. They are doing it for pure greed. The more they can get you in the dealer the better it is for the company, not only does it funnel money back to them but they also get you in front of new machines and they can try and sell you the better machine when you are getting yours repaired.

 

[AKfish]

They know the development cost with the price of the tractor before they even start the project. There are 1000s of hours of this kind of planning before they even start, not to mention the code they create I would guarantee that it is modular so they are not making code for an individual tractor or very little. They have a ROI (return on investment) on the entire project and each piece of the project with projected sales and life of the product.

I wasn't saying that you can't change your own air filter, I was trying to give an analogy that would cause the general public to be enraged. I wasn't saying that that you can't do it today. Though if a major car manufacturer thought they could get away with it they would do it.

Sure you can do maintenance on your machine, my family has one of those 120 hp machines with a brain. They throw a code and you have to have the dealer come and tell you what it is. Can you buy a code reader, sure you could get one if you want to really lay out bank because they want to control who can work on the machines, IF they will sell it do you. They want to keep the people who can work on the machine down so they can reward the people who carry inventory.

Don't forget that sure you can fix something yourself but then there are a lot of cases where you have to clear codes or do resets or calibrations that you HAVE to have the code reader for. I know when we do repairs this is something we run into and you get stuck without a code reader. The farmers are not trying to redo the engine emission code, they want to be able to fix their machines. Having the ability for farmers to read codes and reset item and do calibrations is trivial and still have the emissions code and secrete sauce locked down. Trivial.

Let's not pretend that they are doing this because they want to help the EPA, that is the banner they hide behind. They are doing it for pure greed. The more they can get you in the dealer the better it is for the company, not only does it funnel money back to them but they also get you in front of new machines and they can try and sell you the better machine when you are getting yours repaired.

Amen... X2.

 

[adventure bob]

I'm confused that your concerned about a business making money. This is a free country and folks can choose to buy something else and move on. However, if this was such a gigantic deal, Deere would be scrambling due to the loss of business revenue. Their shareholders report doesn't reflect what this thread seems to argue: people don't want the tech in their tractors. Their sales of tech laden tractors just don't reflect that concern.

As to the introduction of "Vice" and their global reporting, Um hows that relevant? Syria? Iraq? If they were there covering the ag industry I'd be all about it, but they're there covering social issues. The only ag they cover is the weed industry. RFD TV is relevant because they cover the state of Ag in the US, where according to this thread, everyone is against the tech in tractors. RFD TV covers these issues and its not a big deal in the ag world, so why is it a big deal to mainstream media?

 

[AKfish]

I'm confused that your concerned about a business making money. This is a free country and folks can choose to buy something else and move on. However, if this was such a gigantic deal, Deere would be scrambling due to the loss of business revenue. Their shareholders report doesn't reflect what this thread seems to argue: people don't want the tech in their tractors. Their sales just don't reflect that concern.

Time will tell...eh? If you don't think Deere and other's are directing a very significant focus on the Nebraska court case (and 6 other states) you're not paying attention...

People want the technology, that's not the issue - (as I'm certain you understand). It is a question of "control" and what you can or cannot do with property that you own!