Advice on repair bill....

[Ford tractor]

I get what you guys are saying, but I just dont follow the logic. I seem to be getting the advice that since heavy equipment is expensive to repair and since most people need it repaired at all costs its okay for the guy to rip me of or over charge.

No exactly. You wrote initially;

The shop called me today and said they think they found the problem. There is one small part in both of the work port relief valves that is worn. They quoted me about 260 a piece for the replacement valves and said they can have them in the morning. The guy told me that labor would probably be about $1000, which seemed high to me. I questioned the estimated amount and he told me that they had about 4hrs in it so far and they would have more time putting it back together. Labor is $87 an hour.

At $87 an hour that's 11-12 hours total labor. They have 4 hours taking it apart, probably will charge you an hour for looking up the parts etc, then probably an hour to assemble and test the valve as an assembly probably on a pressure/flow fixture, 4 hours to put it all back into the hoe and adjust the controls etc, that's about 10 hours there -- right? Then he probably added an hour or so to test the whole machine and make sure it was really fixed. I don't know the shop you are dealing with, the standard procedures they use, etc but the stuff I outlined is fairly basic in the industry for a decent shop.

What I hear is you upset about a quote or estimate not being a firm fixed price and being "ripped off" even before the bill is presented. I certainly could be wrong about that, apologies in advance if that's the case. I do hope you get your equipment back up and running the way you want it to be.

 

[J_J]

How is that remotely possible ? The machine has yet to be repaired and returned to service.

futuresweets10, said he had the valve rebuilt. What did they actually do. Did they put the valve on the bench, and test it. Did they notice the work port relief were acting up. Apparently not, because they returned it to him and he installed, and it still didn't work. So he may be able to seek a refund from the original re-builder based on Cat's diagnostics . We are talking about one pro mechanic against another pro mechanic, and that being, perhaps a Cat certified technician. You just don't let people take advantage of you. Normally, people want answers for things that they paid for, and not fixed. The original guy may not even have tested the unit, or if he did, mis-diagnosed the problem, thinking that if he rebuilt the valve, it would fix things, which it didn't. That caused a real big headache for futuresweets10
He has a right to be pis*ed off.

 

[futuresweets10]

No I don't think anyone is saying it's ok. For the most part, everyone here wants to see you succeed in helping yourself. The problem I see is there hasn't been any logical steps of troubleshooting on your end. You have requested, and been given, some good and practical step by steps. However, what I'm reading is that somehow, without pressure tests, you decided the valve was bad so you took it out and had it overhauled. When that didn't work, you blamed the shop that did what you asked of them. Then you decided it had to be the cylinder, out it comes. When that didn't work out, you road the machine to a different repair shop and are now questioning their unwritten repair estimate. Slow down, take a couple deep breaths, it'll be OK. May cost more than you wanted to pay but in the end run, the machine gets fixed and you (hopefully) learn some valuable lessons.

I just got the machine back from the shop, and the problem was in the valves. I was right from the start. I took the advice of many on here on how to test the cylinder and it tested good, so I had the valves re-done. The first shop DID miss something in the valves. The ONLY mistake I made in trouble shooting was rebuilding the cylinder knowing that it tested good when I tested it

 

[futuresweets10]

No exactly. You wrote initially;



At $87 an hour that's 11-12 hours total labor. They have 4 hours taking it apart, probably will charge you an hour for looking up the parts etc, then probably an hour to assemble and test the valve as an assembly probably on a pressure/flow fixture, 4 hours to put it all back into the hoe and adjust the controls etc, that's about 10 hours there -- right? Then he probably added an hour or so to test the whole machine and make sure it was really fixed. I don't know the shop you are dealing with, the standard procedures they use, etc but the stuff I outlined is fairly basic in the industry for a decent shop.

What I hear is you upset about a quote or estimate not being a firm fixed price and being "ripped off" even before the bill is presented. I certainly could be wrong about that, apologies in advance if that's the case. I do hope you get your equipment back up and running the way you want it to be.

The valves were not actually of the machine. He JUST took the work port relief valves off, which I had previously done so I know it can be done in under an hour. When I had them off it took me less than 10 min to put them back in. Thats 4 hrs of diagnosis and dis assembly, which leaves 8 hrs left. If the new reliefs can be put installed in less than 10 min that the testing should be included in that hr. that only brings the total to 5 hrs. That still leaves 7 hrs un-accounted for by this logic. I did ask them to check the pressure on the pump, but that should only be an hour.

In the end, the "quote" of how many hours it would take was just that, an estimate. I think the hrs they charged me were actually kinda high, but it was no where near the 12hrs. They did charge me 16bucks a gallon for fluid when I can buy cat fluid for 30 for a 5, but that didnt piss me off too bad as I know how that kinda stuff is.

 

[futuresweets10]

futuresweets10, said he had the valve rebuilt. What did they actually do. Did they put the valve on the bench, and test it. Did they notice the work port relief were acting up. Apparently not, because they returned it to him and he installed, and it still didn't work. So he may be able to seek a refund from the original re-builder based on Cat's diagnostics . We are talking about one pro mechanic against another pro mechanic, and that being, perhaps a Cat certified technician. You just don't let people take advantage of you. Normally, people want answers for things that they paid for, and not fixed. The original guy may not even have tested the unit, or if he did, mis-diagnosed the problem, thinking that if he rebuilt the valve, it would fix things, which it didn't. That caused a real big headache for futuresweets10
He has a right to be pis*ed off.

When I went to the first shop I had the valves on the machine still and asked if they needed the entire machine or if they could trouble shoot the valves off the machine. They said they could work with just the valves. I told them to re-do anything that could possibly cause problems in the valve no matter how small or big. I told them that when I put the valves back on the machine I didnt want any problems.

I have a feeling they kinda looked through them a bit and didnt really do much to them. Based on what I described to them I think they were thinking it was a cylinder so they could get away with not doing much. I doubt I will have any recourse agasint them though. Their word against mine and the invoice from cat

 

[J_J]

If the first ship rebuilt the valve, did they test it. Doesn't seem likely.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I just got the machine back from the shop, and the problem was in the valves. I was right from the start. I took the advice of many on here on how to test the cylinder and it tested good, so I had the valves re-done. The first shop DID miss something in the valves. The ONLY mistake I made in trouble shooting was rebuilding the cylinder knowing that it tested good when I tested it

I have opened all the previous threads about this "bucket tilt up-problem"...
First thread....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/177975-basic-logic-question.html

here is your first post

Some of you may have seen my other threads and kinda have an idea whats going on already. The front bucket on my back hoe wont tilt up or down and if I pick it up off the ground it just falls. I took the entire valve assembly off and had a local shop rebuild it. My logic is that the ONLY OTHER POSSIBILITY is the cylinder needing rebuilt. Am I correct or is there anything else that could cause this?

the ONLY OTHER POSSIBILITY wasn't really a possibility from the beginning.....The oil volume the piston rod are displacing have to go some were to make the bucket drop......that volume can only go out through the valve (read Work Port Relief Valves, WPRV).

If rod was extracting while bucket dropping down.....piston seal alone would be possible....then piston rod would create a void of oil instead, and a cavity would be created.
It do not take a lot pressure to hold an empty bucket, even though pressure might be 4 times higher if piston seal is blown, it should not be enough pressure to crack one of the two WPRV's....
If work port relief pressure settings are designed properly, FEL lift WPRV should crack before bucket WPRV....

Many "advisers" here, it doesn't matter if you have 1000, 3000, 7000 or 10000 posts on the forum, are guessing without enough knowledge to "back up" their guesses. But that's part of a Forum...."freedom of speak" so to speak...

Second thread....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/178090-getting-tired-hydraulics-another-help.html

The way its acting makes it impossible to be the cylinder. Its leaking down on one side only, that means its not bypassing. The only way it could be the cylinder is if it were leaking externally, but its not.

This your first post were you admitted the only option was the WPRV


I have a question to everybody here on TBN.....
How should a poster like futuresweets10, deal with all the so called "advice" he gets, about how to proceed with a problem like this????

He obviously got so many different advice and supports on advice so he became confused and became irrational........

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Shop that claimed to rebuild the valves obviously screwed up. It takes loads of equipment to properly rebuild and test valves which is why I don't do it. It's usually more cost effective to just replace a suspected bad valve.

No reasonable person should think you are a bad guy. It seems to me you are a good guy caught in a crappy situation. You have every right to be annoyed. We've all flown off the handle at one time or another. Don't sweat it.

 

[futuresweets10]

On a side note, Im pretty sure they put "the new guy" on my repair because when I walked back in the shop there was a BRAND new harbor freight tool box next to the hoe.:laughing:

 

[futuresweets10]

I have opened all the previous threads about this "bucket tilt up-problem"...
First thread....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/177975-basic-logic-question.html

here is your first post

the ONLY OTHER POSSIBILITY wasn't really a possibility from the beginning.....The oil volume the piston rod are displacing have to go some were to make the bucket drop......that volume can only go out through the valve (read Work Port Relief Valves, WPRV).

If rod was extracting while bucket dropping down.....piston seal alone would be possible....then piston rod would create a void of oil instead, and a cavity would be created.
It do not take a lot pressure to hold an empty bucket, even though pressure might be 4 times higher if piston seal is blown, it should not be enough pressure to crack one of the two WPRV's....
If work port relief pressure settings are designed properly, FEL lift WPRV should crack before bucket WPRV....

Many "advisers" here, it doesn't matter if you have 1000, 3000, 7000 or 10000 posts on the forum, are guessing without enough knowledge to "back up" their guesses. But that's part of a Forum...."freedom of speak" so to speak...

Second thread....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/178090-getting-tired-hydraulics-another-help.html


This your first post were you admitted the only option was the WPRV


I have a question to everybody here on TBN.....
How should a poster like futuresweets10, deal with all the so called "advice" he gets, about how to proceed with a problem like this????

He obviously got so many different advice and supports on advice so he became confused and became irrational........

I consider myself to possess great forum skills when it comes to knowing that I have to take everything with a grain of salt until I know its coming from a good source. Early on when I would see your posts they were the posts I took to be fact. When I would post a new update or question I would come home hoping to see that you had posted in the thread. Not to say everyone else was giving bad advice, but I KNEW I could trust what you said. Part of the reason they didnt take longer to trouble shoot and I didnt have a higher bill was because when I dropped it off I told them that "several people" who had looked at it told me that it HAD to be in the WPRV