edumacate me on horse power

   / edumacate me on horse power #51  
1948berg said:
I have a friend who has this motto to live after:

"THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TORQUE"


Us USA motor heads used to say,


"There's no replacement for displacement"


Bigger engines have much more low end torque. A 427 side oiler grabbing a hole shot in a '68 cougar is a sensation to remember. Same as a 454 Chevelle, 440 Dart, 426 Hemi Barracuda, etc.

Vrroom!


And yes, I'm JB and I have PTS... It's been 2 months since my last tractor ride....
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #52  
seeing a 427 in a 68 cougar is a site to remember. Talk about tight fit. My 68 had a 390 GT engine in it. You had to take off the motor mounts and jack the engine up 2 inches to get to the plugs. But it did run rather nice, especially when that double pumper holley kicked in all 4 barrels.
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #53  
gemini5362 said:
seeing a 427 in a 68 cougar is a site to remember. Talk about tight fit. My 68 had a 390 GT engine in it. You had to take off the motor mounts and jack the engine up 2 inches to get to the plugs. But it did run rather nice, especially when that double pumper holley kicked in all 4 barrels.


I have a '68 427 cougar currently and other cats with FE's in the past. Never had to do what you are listing. Worst case was removing the torque braces from the firewall to the shock towers to get to the back plugs on the drivers side under the power brakes. Even there, that was only for convenience. They can be changed with all that stuff in place. 3/8 th drive ratchet, short socket, stubby extension and a swivel. Iron manifolds and hooker super comps - either way no problem. But ---- you do want the engine to be cold. Hot checking plugs after a 1/4 run is not my idea of relaxation!

jb
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #54  
Do you have exhaust emission controls on that 68 with the 427 in it. That was the problem with mine the exhaust emission controls were small steel tubing that went to the exhaust for each cylinder with those in the way you could not get to the plugs without the engine raising technique. I finally got tired of that and removed them and plugges the exhaust where they went after that it was a lot easier to change the plugs
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #55  
Everyone has provided a lot of great info about horsepower and torque,
but nothing as where it is derived from in an engine.
It's actually quite simple. From a 19th century steam engine book:
hpformula.jpg

P = Pressure (Mean Effective Pressure, MEP)
L = Length of Stroke
A = Surface Area of Face of Piston
N = Number of (Power Strokes) per minute

The formula may have originally been for steam engines
but it also works for internal combustion engines.

Some additional info:
Mean Effective Pressure (MEP).
At the top of the stroke a pressurized gas is introduced into the cylinder.
The pressurized gas can be steam, or it can be pressurized by sealing an
air/fuel mixture in the cylinder and igniting it. If steam is used, a valve is
opened momentarily to admit steam, then closed. The steam pushes the
piston and expands the volume of the cylinder. The piston pushes the
crank rod which pushes the crank which rotates because of the torque
produced by the crank angle and the force of the crank rod.
If an air/fuel mixture is used in an internal combustion engine the same thing
happens but the pressure is generated inside the cylinder by the burning
fuel. I'll get to flame speed in a bit as it relates to gas or diesel engines.
If you inject 100psi steam into a cylinder and then close the valve, the
piston will move and the volume inside the cylinder will increase. As the
volume increases the pressure will drop. MEP is sort of an average pressure
as the piston moves from the top to the bottom. MEP is also affected by
the crank angle as the crank rotates it changes the moment arm between
the crank rod and the crank shaft. This also affects torque in the stroke.
It is the same thing in an I.C engine. The fuel ignites and expands to create
pressure. Then this pressure does the work the same as in a steam engine.
Now this is also where flame speed comes in. Someone once said that time
is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once. This is so true
in the timing of an engine. Everything has to happen in its proper time.
In a steam engine, the crank reaches top dead center (TDC) and a valve
opens to admit steam. But even as the steam is being admitted the piston
is already moving down the shaft increasing the volume. If steam is
admitted at a rate so that the MEP is constant thru the stroke then the only
H.P and Torque being created is being used to overcome friction losses.
You have to admit steam fast enough to keep cylinder pressure up so that
there will be extra H.P and Torque to do useful work from the engine.
In I.C engines where the pressure is generated inside of the cylinder
The fuel will burn at a certain rate (flame speed) until it is consumed.
As it burns the gaseos vapors will be expanding (creating pressure) and
the piston will be moving down the cylinder. When the fuel is consumed the
resulting gaseous vapor will be at its maximum volume and the rest is up to
MEP in the cylinder. Gasoline has a high flame speed so most of the
combustion takes place at the top of the stroke where the moment arm is
smallest. The rest of the stroke is dependant on MEP so torque is lower and
must be produced at higher RPMs burning more fuel. With diesel engines the
flame speed is slower and the pressure is generated thru a great portion of
the stroke. At half stroke the moment arm is greatest and the most torque is
produced. Because of the slower flame speed the torque curve is shifted into
this section of the stroke giving the diesel engine a higher torque rating and
at a lower RPM, making it more fuel efficient.

Horsepower is a unit in the English Standard system and is defined as
33000 foot-pounds per minute, or 550 foot-pounds per second.
Any permutation of these numbers can be used. 1100 ft-lbs/sec = one H.P.
15500 foot-pounds per 30 seconds = one horse power.
It is a derived unit based on amount of work done per unit of time.
Around 1780 James Watt defined the unit arbitrarily by watching horses
power a water pump. Four horses were hitched to a device that walked
them in a circular path. Their walking rotated the device and the rotative
energy was used to lift water from a deep well. Watt studied this process
and kept notes of the volume of water lifted and the speed of the horses.
From this data he calculated one average horse could lift 33000 pounds of
water a distance of one foot in one minute. Or 550 pounds in one second.

Since it is a unit of power per unit time it can be converted to other similar
units. It may sound strange to hear it but my 23hp 8N tractor could also be
said to be a 17151.097 watt 8N tractor. A 200 watt light bulb =
.268204418 horsepower. And one HP = 745.699872 watts.
A watt is a unit in the S.I system (metric) named in honor of James Watt.
Units of power can also be expressed as joules per second, or it can be
(((kilogram*meter/second^2))*meter)/minute, or newton*meter/second, etc.

And horsepower don't mean nothing if you can't put it to the ground.
You can have 3000HP but if you just sit there and spin your tires in the mud
then it don't mean anything. Putting the power to work is what counts.
You can put your power in traction, or operating a hay baler, or brush hog,
or basically anything that requires energy input to recieve a desired action.
How you can use it is what counts. Just like the man that couldn't pull the
heavy boat out of his barn with the 300 hp truck, but the 20 hp tractor
could do it, it's all in how you put the power to use.

And the reason you see the inflated HP ratings on things today is horsepower
sells tractors. Salesmen are counting on you to not know what it means.
Then you get into real horsepower vs developed horsepower.
Developed HP is an imaginary number and basically be ignored.
It's what you can actually use that is what counts.

Pooh Bear (aka Fluff for Brains)
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #56  
Just an amendment: 1100 ft-lbs/sec = 2hp, not 1.
But 1100 ft-lbs/2sec still equals 1 hp.
And I shouldn't have typed all that at 3am last night.
Wish I could edit it now.

Pooh Bear.
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #57  
I think the best experiment would be to hook up two tractors with same weight , horsepower, trannies, tires and twins as drivers, Drawbar to drawbar and give her ****. That'll answer all questions. But maybe not. One might have tires a little lower on air pressure.. Mucho variables but I think everyone will agree over the power curve a diesel does more work with lower RPM's and better mileage. Don't say it costs more but is more efficent in the work it does with the volume of fuel burned. You can think one is better than the other but when you turn the key and it doesn;t start it's a bummer no matter what it burns. A good spark plug costs 2 dollars times 4 cylinders or three so that makes up for the extra filter on the diesel. And on and on and on and on...... It's good guy talk. Imagine your wife on a mop board. Which mop works the best with the littlest effort. God we're lucky to own tractors be it Gas OR Diesel............
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #58  
way i learned it.. gas makes HP and diesel makes torque. I have a 310 hp 605lbs trq engine and its diesel in my chevy! 310 hp cars can spin the tires off till they burn.. but diesel trucks cant, unless they bullydog...etc. 60 hp cars can burn the tires off a car i.e a honda but then again that same honda cant tow a small building but put my truck there and watch me move the world... simple;) btw sometimes being to smart is way to complicating to the problem...
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #59  
fireguy1451 said:
btw sometimes being too smart is a way to complicate the problem...

If this is what you meant to say, I agree.

I look at HP vs TQ like this: Horsepower is only a marketing tool, torque is what gets the job done.
 
   / edumacate me on horse power #60  
dbdartman said:
If this is what you meant to say, I agree.

torque is what gets the job done.


By "job" did you mean endless hours of reading minute points about power generation that mean little to nothing for most rational people? Then "Heck Yes!!"

jb
 
 
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