How many hours of repair work vs total hours on machine?

[Carpenter]

BTW, other PT-owners, if you feel that I've misrepresented either you or our "beloved" machines, please chime in and provide your perspective in addition to my long-winded one...

Kent, I think you summed it up very nicely.

 

[Rara Avis]

Paul,

I'm not sure where you're going with this... but perhaps I can "head it off at the pass....."

PTs are unique in the market place. They're "hand-crafted" by Americans in rural Appalachia by a privately-owned company of probably less than 50 employees total (that's just guessing, but it is a SMALL town and a SMALL company). They're not mass produced on a "Detroit-type assembly line" that may have moved off-shore, or originated there ala Mahindra, Kubota, Kioti, Yanmar, etc. If ANY robotics are involved, they are likely involved in the production of commercial components (wheel motors, pumps, valves, hoses, etc) from one of the companies they purchase their components from...

What PT is selling is steel -- much of it flat stock -- that has been cut and assembled by hand, in jigs at least in some cases. They MAY (don't know) have some CNC-controlled lathes, mills or plasma cutters, but that is LIKELY as automated as they get. All the more-complex parts (motors, pumps, valves, etc.) are after-market components.

What is unique about them is their initial design, and how they are marketed and supported. (a) In addition to the base design of an articulating, oscillating tool-carrier, for example, they have hydraulically-actuated quick attaches [QA] while the "big boys" still use manual levers and pins if they have ANY type of QA at all. (b) When you call for support or parts, your feedback as an owner/user is one person away from the design engineers and the "assembly line workers" and your needed parts are shipped overnight with an accompanying hand-written invoice and ticket...

They're also designed and sold at a somewhat unique quality-level and price-point. (They are an intentional "compromise" in both design concept and in execution.) They are NOT competing head-to-head with machines targeted at commercial users, farmers, or "box-store" consumers -- think "rental store" quality/price and level of construction ... somewhere below commercial-user (ala Bobcat, JD, NH, etc.) but higher than mass-produced lawn/garden tractors (Murray, MTD, etc.). What they deliver is functionality and versatility that is about 1/2 the cost of similar machines (if they existed) that are produced by the "big boys."

For examples of the initial design concept, the PT-425, at roughly $11,000 base price (tractor + bucket) delivers a 25-HP gas machine with an 800-lb FEL with that hydraulically-activated QA that allows you to quickly attach mower decks (finish or rough-cut) in addition to construction-type implements, and will operate on 20-degree slopes and literally run circles (because of its articulation/oscillation) around either a CUT/SCUT or skidsteer. That's more lift capacity than either SCUTs or garden tractors at that price point -- made from steel thickness comparable to the SCUTs and much heavier-duty than the garden tractors that are priced at this point. Meanwhile, they provide "ride-on" functionality at a price-point similar to the "stand-on" Kangas, Dingos, etc. mini-skidsteers that have far less capacity for any of the corresponding PT implements, whether that be bucket size, lift capacity, trenching width, etc.

Similarly, at roughly $17,500 base price (tractor + bucket, not considering factory sales or discounts) you get a 30 HP diesel machine with 1200-lb FEL that operates safely on 30-degree slopes. That price is very competitive with mass-produced CUTs/SCUTs with that capacity and the gauge of steel used is comparable. Meanwhile, they provide versatily and maneuverability in addition to slope-capability that the SCUT/CUT simply cannot match. Corresponding skidsteers, with heavier construction (and the negatives of weight, lawn destruction, etc) are not as maneuvererable and would likely cost about twice that, for either the machine or any given attachment, but would have heavier-duty construction.

Now let's look at execution (i.e. manufacturing and support). My personal example is an older (new in Dec 2000) PT-425. I've encountered what I consider to be two design or manufacturing flaws/weaknesses. The first is the "roll-over" bar, shaft and linkage that dumps the bucket. While others like Mossroad (who has an identical machine as far as I can tell) have had no problems with theirs (at least to date), mine has broken and been replaced -- likely because of my abuse using the mini-hoe while running loaded tires all around (NOT recommended by the factory), meaning the machine won't "pucker" as readily, tranferring more force to these components than they were originally designed for... The cost of my replacement parts was roughly $250, plus shipping, and they arrived within 48 hours, and I paid $40 to get them welded up after I replaced them. (Compare that to main structural component part prices for a CUT/SCUT or piece of commercial equipment.) Meanwhile, based on feedback from owners/users, PT has since begun making the rollover bar out of heavier steel, solving the problem. The other "design weakness" I've encountered is with the tubeless tires on the attachments, and PT now offers (not sure if they're standard or an extra-cost option) solid-rubber tires that will take the abuse of the down-pressure from the FEL combined with rough use, solving that problem.

I think most PT owners are about as unique as the machines themselves -- we will "live with" some flaws in design or execution, helping the factory correct those problems in later production runs, in order to get the functionality, maneuverability, and versatility we enjoy, at a price point that no one else can compete with...

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I don't want anyone "bashing" these machines because they may not have the initial production quality of the the perceived competition. IMO, the only true competitors are a few rare European-made machines such as the Avant (sold as a Gehl in the US), the Multi-one, etc., and they also cost around 50% more, if not even greater... meanwhile, parts availablity and support for them might not be even as good as the PTs, much less superior...

Bashing is the last thing on my mind... Conceptually I like the idea of having one trailer with most of my goodies on it so I can show up and get the job done and deal with uncertainties, WITHOUT having to go back to the farm for another implement... I have read thru most of the threads on this forum...And what I want to know, before I sink money on a piece of equipment in bad economic times, is can one count on this machine to work when the work is available...i.e...If I've got a project that must be done by the end of the week, will I be spending my off hours fixing some archane problem...or will routine daily maintenance keep me up and running...

And yes, and I remember the thread about NOT loading tires because of the hydraulic wheel motors...

 

[BobRip]

Bashing is the last thing on my mind... Conceptually I like the idea of having one trailer with most of my goodies on it so I can show up and get the job done and deal with uncertainties, WITHOUT having to go back to the farm for another implement... I have read thru most of the threads on this forum...And what I want to know, before I sink money on a piece of equipment in bad economic times, is can one count on this machine to work when the work is available...i.e...If I've got a project that must be done by the end of the week, will I be spending my off hours fixing some archane problem...or will routine daily maintenance keep me up and running...

And yes, and I remember the thread about NOT loading tires because of the hydraulic wheel motors...

Paul, I think the big issue is that you must do the repairs yourself. If you are not handy, I don't think you should get a PT. Or at least find a local guy who is willing to work on it befor you buy. Mine has been very reliable, but I do tend to fix things and forget that they ever broke. I think the weakness may be in the attachments. I think the brush cutter needs something better than the bolts that hold the blades on. Also they can get stuck on the hubs. It's an easy fix, and I keep a hammer and wrench on board to do it.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Paul, which PT are you looking at?

Kent has really nailed what PT is about. As Kent said, PT is a compromise tractor. It is not a great tractor, nor a great skip loader, nor a great mower, but it does all of those things pretty good. It is simple... very simple.

The new PT's I hear about suffer from minor fit and finish issues, but a simple turn of the wrench usually fixes those problems.

I know that the pro guys love the machine, as it does so much so easily. I also know that they have maintenance issues that tend to wear the machines.

As i said, my PT was abused. And I have not given it any love since it came into my possession. But is strong, always starts, and when something breaks I get answers immediatly from the factory and better than that, most of the parts are down at my local hydraulic supply..

Carl

 

[KentT]

Bashing is the last thing on my mind... Conceptually I like the idea of having one trailer with most of my goodies on it so I can show up and get the job done and deal with uncertainties, WITHOUT having to go back to the farm for another implement... I have read thru most of the threads on this forum...And what I want to know, before I sink money on a piece of equipment in bad economic times, is can one count on this machine to work when the work is available...i.e...If I've got a project that must be done by the end of the week, will I be spending my off hours fixing some archane problem...or will routine daily maintenance keep me up and running...

And yes, and I remember the thread about NOT loading tires because of the hydraulic wheel motors...

Paul, I apologize for misinterpreting where you might be heading with your question...

I bought my machine with 250 hours on it -- the guy had finished the major construction and landscaping chores he'd bought it for, had ready access to a bigger CUT and wanted to buy a top-of-the-line ZTR, so he was selling his PT (the first one talked about in these forums, as far as I can tell). So, not getting it new from the factory, I can't address some of the initial quirks or issues that it might have had. Since I've had it, it has been quite reliable -- and the only thing that really put me out of commission temporarily was when the rollover bar failed. Other than that, and the hassles of dealing with flats, it's been as reliable as any other piece of equipment I've owned.

You will need to become accustomed to doing all your own maintenance, and even minor troubleshooting when you do have problems. You'll have to become at least somewhat familiar with hydraulics, if you're not already -- they're the essence of the PT. But as you can see, there's a great "support group" here, and Terry is incredibly helpful and patient.

Personlly, I think Carpenter summed it up much better than I did. My friend uses his term -- handy -- by saying "They're handier than a pocket on a shirt..."

ONE FINAL CAUTION: You'll find yourself doing projects that you'd never have considered doing before -- because they're so much easier to do, and it's so much fun to do them with the PT...

 

[Rara Avis]

It is between a 1430 and a 1445...

I currently do maintenance on JD 2640s and JD855 and Farmall 460 and all of the assorted gear for hay farming...

I just don't want to have to create another new career of hardcore maintenance...

I looked real hard at Index UNTIL I SAW THEIR PRICES...

In terms of projects...I have a list longer than your arm...

I priced a BRADCO PTO driven Trencher and it is 4 times the Power-trac trencher price...
I priced a stump grinder...and same story...
et cetera et cetera...
I am currently trying to convince SWMBO that the PT with its toys will be cheaper than the 3PH versions PLUS we'll have another set of wheels to handle odd jobs during the hay season when all of the other tractors are committed to haying...

 

[woodlandfarms]

Index are sweet... But to me they are just aching for long term troubles.

If you can swing the 1445 it is a great purchase. Considering the meat you have around the farm the 1430 will disapoint in its size / capability. Heck get the 1460 if your wallet is deep (or the wife is looking the other way

I don't think any of us here can guarantee a flawless machine based on personal experiences, but I do feel you won't have much downtime with the beast. And once you use it even if you have downtime you will appreciate the uptime so very much more.

A couple of things that blow about the PT. No Chipper, nor a 3pt Hydraulic adapter. The tools that they make are solid, but some of us have gone off the reservation and modified 3rd party implements in favor of PT stuff...

 

[Rara Avis]

Index are sweet... But to me they are just aching for long term troubles.

If you can swing the 1445 it is a great purchase. Considering the meat you have around the farm the 1430 will disapoint in its size / capability. Heck get the 1460 if your wallet is deep (or the wife is looking the other way

I don't think any of us here can guarantee a flawless machine based on personal experiences, but I do feel you won't have much downtime with the beast. And once you use it even if you have downtime you will appreciate the uptime so very much more.

A couple of things that blow about the PT. No Chipper, nor a 3pt Hydraulic adapter. The tools that they make are solid, but some of us have gone off the reservation and modified 3rd party implements in favor of PT stuff...

Chipper is not a problem...I've got a Wallenstein BX-62 that's currently hooked up to the Farmall...

This unit is really a replacement/supplement for my CUT...

I have JD2640(s)...70 HP units for most of the heavier work...

 

[cqaigy2]

I know im not in the same league as those with these bigger machines, but I've been very happy and impressed with the capacity of my little 422. Stability on hills was one of my main concerns also maneuverability in close quarters. I have some relatively steep areas with trees mixed in. I had a problem with the Kubota i borrowed i.e. keeping all the wheels in contact with the ground and i figured it was just a matter of time before it and me were going to go over and give me a ride i'd rather not have. I'm not exactly a tractor novice and have used a fair amount of construction equipment. When a wheel comes up on the pt, you just readjust what your doing and continue.

 

[SpringHollow]

A couple of things that blow about the PT. No Chipper, nor a 3pt Hydraulic adapter. ...

There are skid steer 3pt adapters with hydraulic pto's that one can attach to the PT. A little pricey but at some point worth buying or building your own.

Ken