M59 headaches

[rScotty]

This is what the service manager is telling me. It is the pump that swings the hoe and operates the 3pth. The hoe swung just fine before I took it to them.

David

David, I'm an old mechanic and have to say that the information you are getting from this shop doesn't sound right to me. You may need to get an M59 workshop manual out and study up on the hydraulic system; not all the info you are getting is making sense. I'll go through a couple of things here.

According to the shop manual pg. 8-M9 there are only two relief valves in the M59. There are complete specifications and a really good description of their operation is on that page, too. Both valve circuits appear to be easy to test, and of course testing them is going to tell you most of what you need to know about the hydraulic system. That's why testing circuit pressures and relief valve pressures is always the first thing any hydraulic mechanic does when troubleshooting a circuit. Ask to see his testing notes. Without those notes we are sort of guessing in the dark.

And while you are at it, take a look at the shop's hydraulic flow meter that he is using. Make sure that they have one and that it works.
A hydraulic flowmeter is the hydraulic equivalent of what a Volt/Ohm/Ammeter (VOM) is to to troubleshooting electrical problems. If a shop doesn't have one, their diagnostics are going to be on a par with the electrician whose only recourse is to rub wires together to see if it sparks.

A hydraulic flow meter is a simple device that that is simply inserted into the hydraulic line you want to measure and has a couple of gauges and dials that show pressure rise as the gauge puts a variable flow restriction into the line. So it measures flow (in gallons per minute) and of course pressure. The better new ones will also do a data dump. That isn't necessary for this. A pencil & notebook are enough.

A Flowmeter isn't cheap... nor expensive..... it's just a typical shop tool of the kind that doesn't get used every day so usually a shop only owns one. But they are an absolute necessity to a mechanic doing hydraulic work. I bring it up mostly because I've heard that some less well equipped shops might not even have one. If so, of course that in itself will tell you all you need to know about having work done there.

As for the hoe not swinging now but did before you took it in, it sounds to me like someone bumped the directional change lever (pg. 8-8M) in the shop manual. Most of us M59 owners have done that because it is so easy to do by accident. Experience has shown that moving that lever isn't simple. That lever is all too easy to move accidently and then end up with either an obstruction or bubble in the swing valve so that the swing only works to move the hoe to one side... or sometimes not at all. There are lots of posts on TBN about that particular M59 swing problem.

I see that you have both an excavator and dumptrucks, so all this hydraulic stuff is probably old hat to you. I just mention most of it because there are all too many shops today where all the mechanics know is how to do computer diagnostics. That isn't going to help do hydraulics on an M59, because the M59 is from an era before hydraulic sensors became common. It can't tell you what it doesn't know. Diagnosis on these older machines relies on understanding the flow system and of course having a flow/pressure meter. Or consider taking it instead to any old-time hydraulic shop.
rScotty

 

[dsgsr]

(I see that you have both an excavator and dump trucks, so all this hydraulic stuff is probably old hat to you.) Yes I've been working with this type of equipment and have had 5-tractors over the last 21-yrs. and put well over 10K hrs. on them. That said, I'm No mechanic. I've always done my own maint. and small repairs, etc, repairing hydraulic cylinders and such. They are telling me there is a motor not turning inside the trans body. I'm assuming it is a hyd. motor of some kind. Now maybe it is a hyd. motor on the outside and it is not turning because of a lost connection to the inside, that I don't know.

David

 

[rScotty]

(I see that you have both an excavator and dump trucks, so all this hydraulic stuff is probably old hat to you.) Yes I've been working with this type of equipment and have had 5-tractors over the last 21-yrs. and put well over 10K hrs. on them. That said, I'm No mechanic. I've always done my own maint. and small repairs, etc, repairing hydraulic cylinders and such. They are telling me there is a motor not turning inside the trans body. I'm assuming it is a hyd. motor of some kind. Now maybe it is a hyd. motor on the outside and it is not turning because of a lost connection to the inside, that I don't know.

David

Did he say why he reached that decision? You say it worked when it went into the shop. Does that matter?
I always ask how they reached their diagnosis, most are more than willing to share that.

In mechanical systems things break suddenly. Gears break, connectors fail, bearings collapse, and shafts can break. But hydraulic system parts tend to go wrong slowly over a longer period of time.
Sudden failures are rare with hydraulics, and sudden failures are more likely to be in associated parts like hoses and valves.
Diagnosis is the most difficult part of being a mechanic. Especially so in hydraulics. Check those levers.

It's nice to find a knowledgeable mechanic that you can trust.
Otherwise it's just a matter of getting the parts manual and the service manual and studying it yourself until you understand the system.
Sometimes doing both helps.
Good Luck,
rScotty

 

[dsgsr]

I had them check the levers, before they did anything. Also make sure the clutch was not engaged. They are claiming they know this motor is not turning because it is not pumping oil. Not going to know anything until they slit the tractor. This is the only dealership I trust, they are as honest as a dealer can be. I have dealt with the other 2 Kubota dealers, Hammond Tractor was ok but not as good as Union Farm. You now no why I won't deal with Dorr's.


David

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Interesting. There is a motor mounted pump and a transmission mounted pump. All the hydraulics that operate from the motor mounted pump work with the clutch pushed in. All hydraulics from the tranny mounted pump stop when clutch is pushed in. If machine still drives then the clutch is engaged. That would lead to believe that the tranny pump has failed. Thats the one I lost on my m59, all the shavings took out the front pump also so I lost both pumps. The only other pump I was told was the hst and thats internal and I really dont think it runs anything but the hst. Unless a shaft broke I could see splitting the tracto to repair the pump. To split the m59 is a big job because of the unique subframe.

Maybe you were losing the transmission mounted pump all along and the testing they put it through went ahead and killed it, such as using a flow meter. But that still wouldnt warrant splitting.

Very curious. Please keep us posted.

 

[dsgsr]

Interesting. There is a motor mounted pump and a transmission mounted pump. All the hydraulics that operate from the motor mounted pump work with the clutch pushed in. All hydraulics from the tranny mounted pump stop when clutch is pushed in. If machine still drives then the clutch is engaged. That would lead to believe that the tranny pump has failed. Thats the one I lost on my m59, all the shavings took out the front pump also so I lost both pumps. The only other pump I was told was the hst and thats internal and I really dont think it runs anything but the hst. Unless a shaft broke I could see splitting the tracto to repair the pump. To split the m59 is a big job because of the unique subframe.

Maybe you were losing the transmission mounted pump all along and the testing they put it through went ahead and killed it, such as using a flow meter. But that still wouldnt warrant splitting.

Very curious. Please keep us posted.

Hersheyfarm, was the work covered under warranty? How many hrs.? How much did it cost?

David

 

[Hersheyfarm]

You might look up my old thread here, but it was under warranty. Tractor had about 75hr if I remember. I think kubota paid them $2500. But Id be surprised if an out of warranty job would be that cheap.

I remember I had a propeller shaft leak and the service guy said probably about $1200 to fix. (Split tractor)When I got there they looked at it and didnt take into account the m59 sub frame. Said probably upwards around $4k. I left.
Had another dealer split the tractor and fix seal for half that.

 

[rScotty]

You might look up my old thread here, but it was under warranty. Tractor had about 75hr if I remember. I think kubota paid them $2500. But Id be surprised if an out of warranty job would be that cheap.

I remember I had a propeller shaft leak and the service guy said probably about $1200 to fix. (Split tractor)When I got there they looked at it and didnt take into account the m59 sub frame. Said probably upwards around $4k. I left.
Had another dealer split the tractor and fix seal for half that.

Hey Hershey, do you remember last year when we were helping a new M59 owner "c304" whose M59 backhoe mysteriously quit swinging? It was back in April of 2018..... Trick was to aggressively (your words I think!) wiggling the control lever. We also suggested raising one side with the stabilizer and letting gravity swing the boom while moving the control lever. Whatever, it worked for him like it has for a lot of other M59s. No, I have no idea why.
Here's the link:
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/394431-m59-backhoe-hook-operation-3.html
rScotty

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Hey Hershey, do you remember last year when we were helping a new M59 owner "c304" whose M59 backhoe mysteriously quit swinging? It was back in April of 2018..... Trick was to aggressively (your words I think!) wiggling the control lever. We also suggested raising one side with the stabilizer and letting gravity swing the boom while moving the control lever. Whatever, it worked for him like it has for a lot of other M59s. No, I have no idea why.
Here's the link:
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/394431-m59-backhoe-hook-operation-3.html
rScotty

Yea. That was an aggravating tic with my m59. Forgot about that, the m62 does not have that....yet. It was an odd feeling to have your swing go neutral. I wonder if it has anything to do with op swing issue?

I also just revived that thread by accident.

 

[rScotty]

Yea. That was an aggravating tic with my m59. Forgot about that, the m62 does not have that....yet. It was an odd feeling to have your swing go neutral. I wonder if it has anything to do with op swing issue?

I also just revived that thread by accident.

Good you did that. I think we had both forgotten about that simplest of all M59 swing motor malfunctions. We never did figure out why several M59s BHs shopped swinging one way and then fixed themselves. Mine only did it the once, and then fixed itself.
So we still don't know what what caused it to happen and what caused it to go away. But we do know that the same thing happened to enough M59s that it couldn't have been an accident. Just one of those M59 oddities. I think in several threads we did establish that it didn't have anything to do with the pump or clutch or those two remote levers, or operating RPM, or type of trans/hydraulic oil used.

Maybe Kubota knows and aren't saying. I'd sure like to know why our M59s did it and the M62 doesn't. Or maybe we should say it "Doesn't do it yet....."
After all, we didn't see it on all the M59s, and not on any of them until they had been in use for several years.
rScotty