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#91  
I'm pretty sure the original intent was a car dealership. Same owner has several similar properties around town.

I don't know for sure, but I sorta think I'd be OK with a WalMart Marketplace or a 7-11 / Kum-n-Go.

My fear has always been that they would build a bunch of subsidised multi-family housing behind us.

when they put up the WalMart on the property,
 
   / Road closed / opened #92  
Marijuana will remain a Schedule 1 substance under the Controlled Substances Act. Substances in Schedule 1 are determined by the Food and Drug Administration to have no medical use. States that allow marijuana for medical use or legalize recreational use remain in defiance of federal law.

Well, isn't States Rights a big thing with the current administration? Or do they just like to pick and choose?

That was a rhetorical question....
 
   / Road closed / opened #93  
You can't sue someone for negligence if you are committing a crime by trespassing.

It like a bank robber suing the guy that dropped a banana in the bank which resulted in the robber falling and breaking open his skull.

If you're trespassing and you are injured, the court would look at it like the injury would not happen if the trespassing did not happen first.
You can find plenty of stories where people put cables across trails on their own property to prevent trespassing on trails. Then a snowmobiler or ATVr or motorcycler comes through and gets decapitated. The cable hanger goes to jail, and gets sued, and loses.

No one has the right to trespass on that property. Not the OP, not Russell, not anyone. I can understand why the OP would want to clean up the property. And I can understand why the OP wanted to redirect traffic away from his own property. There is a woods behind our house that neighborhood kids turned into a BMX track. Seemed innocent enough... until they started stealing things out of everyones' yards to enhance their track, started hauling in furniture, starting campfires, leaving trash, drinking, night parties, cutting through our yards to get to the track, etc... it was a complete nuisance. So I contacted the land owner and the police. We worked together to get the police to confront the trespassing kids and eventually the problem cleared up.

Another example is our remote tree farm. When we bought it, there were dirt bike trails all over it. My first inclination was to block off all the trails. I consulted my insurance agent. He advised against it for the reason that the trails were open for an unknown amount of time. People were used to using them. Abruptly blocking them off could lead to someone unexpectedly running into an obstruction and getting injured. Even though they were trespassing, they would have had a reasonable expectation that the trail they had been using for X years was open, and most likely, they'd sue for damages. He said I'd lose in court and the insurance company would have to pay out. So here's how he suggested to deal with it.

We posted signs that the property had been sold, it is private property, there is no trespassing, and all trails leading into and out of the property would be closed on X date, about 2 months later. We posted signs, and wrapped orange caution tape around the areas where the trails crossed my property line. Then we took pictures with dates.

Over the course of the two months, the signs and caution tape were ripped down weekly. I replaced them weekly and took more pictures. On X date, I dropped trees across the trail entrances and wrapped more caution tape around them and took more pictures. The trees got dragged off the trails several times. I put them back several times and took more pictures. Then they dragged the trees about a quarter mile down an abandoned rail line. I dragged them back. I also called the police each time they removed the barriers. Finally, one muddy day, we were able to follow the dirt bike tire tracks down the road to a house a mile away. I called the police again, told them I'd press charges if asked to, and they talked to the parents of the kids. We never had a problem again.

The point is, you can do some things on your own property that you can't do on someone else's property. But in either case, you cannot do things that would cause a person unexpected injury. It's why you can't booby trap your house or property with injurious devices.

And while you may think that you won't lose a lawsuit brought by a trespasser against you, who is also a trespasser with no legal permission to be on that property, and was not charged with enforcing the property owners no trespassing sign, well, let's just wait and see how that turns out when you're forking over a couple hundred thousand dollars because some kid on a bike breaks his collar bone on a piece of concrete you set in a trail with the specific intent to impede people from using that trail. You're intent was to prevent something you had no right to prevent. And you caused injury to the kid, who'd been through that trail a hundred times before and had no reasonable expectation that he'd run into a chunk of concrete put there by you.

I guarantee you'll lose in court.
 
   / Road closed / opened #95  
Here's some good reading on who's liable for what on trespassing injury situations... which I don't think covers you, because you'd be causing injury to someone on someone else's property, not your own.

https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=35316

A small snippet:

"If the trespasser is 髮サiscovered, meaning the landowner knew of that individual or others using the property without permission, then the landowner must act with ordinary care. That means that the landowner must protect the known trespasser from reasonably foreseeable harm (such as tripping over an obstacle on a path leading to the front door)."

And from here:
If I was injured while trespassing, can I still file a claim? - Cordisco & Saile LLC

"Property owner discovered trespassers. The argument against compensating injured trespassers is that the property owner cannot predict the presence of a trespasser in order to warn or protect him or her from harm. While this is frequently the case, in some cases the trespasser regularly uses the property for a specific reason and the owner is aware of it.
An example of this scenario would be when someone consistently crosses another痴 property to reach a destination. This could include children who cross someone痴 yard to get to the bus stop, or hikers who cross someone痴 property to get to a trail. In these cases, the owner would be reasonably aware of the likelihood of a trespassing situation and could be liable for injuries caused by dangerous and unmarked hazards."

You're aware that these people are using the property. That makes you liable for any injuries they'd incur if they get injured on something you placed in their path.

Of course, it also depends on the laws in your state. Many are different. Some put all blame on trespassers. Some put partial blame on trespassers. Check you local laws, but again, its not your property to begin with, so you'd probably have no defense to trespassing because they weren't trespassing against you. You're gonna lose any lawsuit brought against you. It may even be criminal. Yikes.
 
   / Road closed / opened #98  
You can find plenty of stories where people put cables across trails on their own property to prevent trespassing on trails. Then a snowmobiler or ATVr or motorcycler comes through and gets decapitated. The cable hanger goes to jail, and gets sued, and loses.

No one has the right to trespass on that property. Not the OP, not Russell, not anyone. I can understand why the OP would want to clean up the property. And I can understand why the OP wanted to redirect traffic away from his own property. There is a woods behind our house that neighborhood kids turned into a BMX track. Seemed innocent enough... until they started stealing things out of everyones' yards to enhance their track, started hauling in furniture, starting campfires, leaving trash, drinking, night parties, cutting through our yards to get to the track, etc... it was a complete nuisance. So I contacted the land owner and the police. We worked together to get the police to confront the trespassing kids and eventually the problem cleared up.

Another example is our remote tree farm. When we bought it, there were dirt bike trails all over it. My first inclination was to block off all the trails. I consulted my insurance agent. He advised against it for the reason that the trails were open for an unknown amount of time. People were used to using them. Abruptly blocking them off could lead to someone unexpectedly running into an obstruction and getting injured. Even though they were trespassing, they would have had a reasonable expectation that the trail they had been using for X years was open, and most likely, they'd sue for damages. He said I'd lose in court and the insurance company would have to pay out. So here's how he suggested to deal with it.

We posted signs that the property had been sold, it is private property, there is no trespassing, and all trails leading into and out of the property would be closed on X date, about 2 months later. We posted signs, and wrapped orange caution tape around the areas where the trails crossed my property line. Then we took pictures with dates.

Over the course of the two months, the signs and caution tape were ripped down weekly. I replaced them weekly and took more pictures. On X date, I dropped trees across the trail entrances and wrapped more caution tape around them and took more pictures. The trees got dragged off the trails several times. I put them back several times and took more pictures. Then they dragged the trees about a quarter mile down an abandoned rail line. I dragged them back. I also called the police each time they removed the barriers. Finally, one muddy day, we were able to follow the dirt bike tire tracks down the road to a house a mile away. I called the police again, told them I'd press charges if asked to, and they talked to the parents of the kids. We never had a problem again.

The point is, you can do some things on your own property that you can't do on someone else's property. But in either case, you cannot do things that would cause a person unexpected injury. It's why you can't booby trap your house or property with injurious devices.

And while you may think that you won't lose a lawsuit brought by a trespasser against you, who is also a trespasser with no legal permission to be on that property, and was not charged with enforcing the property owners no trespassing sign, well, let's just wait and see how that turns out when you're forking over a couple hundred thousand dollars because some kid on a bike breaks his collar bone on a piece of concrete you set in a trail with the specific intent to impede people from using that trail. You're intent was to prevent something you had no right to prevent. And you caused injury to the kid, who'd been through that trail a hundred times before and had no reasonable expectation that he'd run into a chunk of concrete put there by you.

I guarantee you'll lose in court.

There are two broad area's of law, civil and criminal, with lots of precedent on this. The civil side will not hold a landowner liable for actions by one party that require a breaking of a law to become injured. Basically a landowner can't be liable for say a hunter trespassing on his property and breaking his leg. Now if the landowner invited him on to the property and he breaks his leg, he can sue. At that point the land owner has a degree of obligation to keep him safe on his property.

Now the criminal side. You could be convicted of a crime if you knowingly put up barriers to prevent a behavior and the result is an injury. So if you put a booby trap on your land and someone dies as a result, that's a criminal offense because there is intent. The intent is a key distinction here.

It would be hard to prove intent to harm by a barrier which is a fence of sorts, so no criminal intent. There is also no civil liability because there was no assumption they should be there.

It's actually a fair system and keeps the frivolous lawsuits down.
 
   / Road closed / opened #99  
There are two broad area's of law, civil and criminal, with lots of precedent on this. The civil side will not hold a landowner liable for actions by one party that require a breaking of a law to become injured. Basically a landowner can't be liable for say a hunter trespassing on his property and breaking his leg. Now if the landowner invited him on to the property and he breaks his leg, he can sue. At that point the land owner has a degree of obligation to keep him safe on his property.

Now the criminal side. You could be convicted of a crime if you knowingly put up barriers to prevent a behavior and the result is an injury. So if you put a booby trap on your land and someone dies as a result, that's a criminal offense because there is intent. The intent is a key distinction here.

It would be hard to prove intent to harm by a barrier which is a fence of sorts, so no criminal intent. There is also no civil liability because there was no assumption they should be there.

It's actually a fair system and keeps the frivolous lawsuits down.

That's all well and good, but it seems that your post doesn't really address the specific situation here wrt the OP - and that is the OP is NOT the owner of the land in question.
 
   / Road closed / opened #100  
That's all well and good, but it seems that your post doesn't really address the specific situation here wrt the OP - and that is the OP is NOT the owner of the land in question.

Sure it does...just think it through beyond the obvious. He has no claim to the property, he has no civil liability for what happens on that property. However if he trespass, he's breaking the law...he could be charged criminally, irregardless if he's benefitting the landowner.

Come on swan...
 
 
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