Really Weird Tire Losing Air Issue

[Farmwithjunk]

To be fair.. i never said CACL was without risk.. I merely implied that you just have to keep on top of problems.

Soundguy

"To be fair", what you did say was, "Nothing inherantly wrong with calcl" (Not MY spelling on inherAntly) That's just wrong. There IS an inherent problem with using calcl. Anyone who TRIES to claim otherwise is either (a) lacking in common everyday hands on EXPERIENCE regarding tractors OR just trying to create an arguement based on rhetoric, double talk, and/or confusion on their part.

I don't recall reading about anyone being "scared" of using cal chlor. WHat I did read was the common sense aproach that cal chlor IS damaging, and there being an almost guaranteed risk of damage in time. Then a bogus claim of cal chlor not having any inherent risks when using.

A quick look at archived threads on about ANY tractor website will show a litany of threads discussing the damage caused by cal chlor, the alternatives, and ways to LESSEN the likelyhood of early damage resulting from its use. Now if there ISN'T any risk involved, we must ALL be wrong and only imagining all the problems associated with cal chlor. There is a distinct difference between reducing or PREVENTING damage. Anyone with a reasonable ammount of actual EXPERIENCE with the subject will tell you there is NO sure fire method of preventing rust altogether.

But back to the original question. Better tubes sometimes have stainless steel valve stems. Not sure if the core itself is ss or not. In any event, the spring in the core of that schraeder valve won't be ss. They "rot" away as a result of contact with cal/chlor while filling the tire, causing failure of the valve itself. Again, replace the core. While the core is removed, look closely at the "seat" inside the stem to see if corrosion has pitted the seat itself. If so, MOST tractor tubes will have a stem that is mostly removeable from the tube. That's to allow a bigger opening to pump in fluid. It contains that "seat". It MAY require buying another tube anyway, just to get a NEW stem, seeing as to how the stem isn't available individually. That may fix the problem without having to drain/dismount/replace tube/re-mount tire/refill.

There are proper and SIMPLE ways to deal with a small leak, and NOT resort to dismounting tires, since that isn't something a lot of folks are capable of doing themselves. It's not unheard of for a tractor tire to stay mounted on a rim for its entire life, sometimes decades, without being dismounted. In general, most people can't afford, nor wait out the time required to remove a flat tire, wash and dry the rim, paint it if there's any scratches or wear on the paint, then remount the tire (causing damage to that paint again). While that "perfect world" idea SOUNDS like a plan, it rarely ever happens.

One of my tractors has had it's tires mounted since 1980. They're filled with cal chlor. Do I expect rust on the insides of the rims when it gets tires in a couple weeks? Sure do. Has this tractor been properly maintained? Yes it has, probably better than almost any tractor I know of. Do I seemed alarmed over the rust? Not in the slightest. I've been around this stuff long enough to know what'll happen, not speculate and theorize. Rims are being "hot dip" galvanized after a bead blasting. They were ORIGINALLY galvanized, not painted. Maybe they'll last another 36 years this way.

It's almost a given that using cal chlor will cause some damage over time. Best to minimize the damage, yes. Ignore it or make ridiculous and unfounded claims that it is without risk? No way could I ever trust the advice of anyone who claims otherwise.

 

[RoyJackson]

I'd replace the valve stem. They do fail, and for some reason, it seems they fail more often in cold weather.
Jack the axle, rotate the tire so the core is at the 12:00 O'Clock position and let the pressure out. Use a stem tool (available at NAPA and other automotive parts stores, as are the stems) and unscrew the stem. Be careful as it will fly when unthreaded. Use safety goggles, if you have them (also available at NAPA, etc.).
Replace the stem and air up the tire.

Doing this was a very common job when I was servicing F-4's on a flight line during winter months.
I've never had to do it with my 790 (yet), but the tractor is kept in a heated garage during the winter.

 

[KICK]

an EXPERT is generally someone who has already made all the mistakes

 

[Egon]

I'd be a little cautious with that statement KICK.

I'm am not an expert on anything but the mistake part is something else again!!

 

[patrick_g]

Note that the difference between an expert and a professional is that the expert knows a lot about what to do in the given situation where his expertise is and the professional gets paid for doing something in a given situation. Getting paid for doing something does not guarantee expertise. If you are lucky, your professional may also be an expert.

CaCl will eventually get you unless you are extremely lucky or perserverent in PM. I know folks that put Rhino Liner inside their wheels before using CaCl because of a lot of previous experience.

If there is considerable concern, you can sacrifice a little weight and fill the tires with antifreeze with antirust additives. For the environmentally conscious there are nontoxic antifreezes. You can supplement the antifreeze with additional antirust additives for increased protectioin.

Pat

 

[SPYDERLK]

Soundguy&Farmwithjunk, I agree with you both about 95%. Most of the remainder is in your disagreement with each other - which I see as exaggerated.
I have used CaCl with tubes for many years and much of it is experience with watching my Dad use it. His attention was spread too thin and thus we allowed slow leaks to persist. When I took over care of the JD2010 1962tractor after many years I saw the effect of this and it was alerting. The thing, like yous have said here, is that the effect is slow and you have warning. The salt is of course corrosive to common metal, but I have noted that it will damage the tire if it can get into the carcass. This latter is insidious in that once in you cant get it out. The solution dries and crystals saw at the cords. For this reason, as soon as I detect a leak I immediately drain and refill the tire with water. That way I can continue using the machine, inherently rinsing the carcass and rim, while planning for a suitable repair.
On other issues:
* Cacl corrosivity can be reduced by making it alkaline with lime and adding a little sodium chromate [Na2CrO4].
* I havnt found valve cores to be too much of a problem. When they start leaking put on a good valve cap and get around to replacing. When replacing lube the o-ring, and fill the valve, with silicone grease.
Larry

 

[normde2001]

Not enough "wrong with it" that I don't use it in several tractors, but it's totally ridiculous to think of removing a tire/tube and repainting the wheel every time a leak occurs. If a person is overwhelmed with spare time, or just that ****, I suppose he could remove rear tires and do "routine mainenance" on his wheels, but in all likelyhood, a tractor tire won't be coming off a rim until it needs either "flat repair" or tire replacement. Most times, the tire isn't even removed to deal with a puncture. Break down ONE SIDE, reach in and remove the tube, stuff in a new one, air it up and get back in the field is the more "normal" routine.

Who on earth do you suppose would install a 50 year old leaky inner tube? Do you suppose a NEW tube might get a leak? I'd bet THAT happens once in a while too.

Do you suppose it's likely that even a NEW, or well painted rim can have a tractor tire mounted on it without ANY scratches on the edges of the bead lip? Not gonna happen. Tire irons are tough on painted edges of rims. Bare metal there.....

Pull a tire off of a rim where it's been mounted for any lenght of time. The tire will rub the paint off where the inner edge of the bead contacts the rim. I just last week helped my son install tubes in the rear wheels of his NEW Deere. (It came with tubeless tires) He wanted tubes before installing cal/chlor. When we broke down the bead on a NEW tire/wheel with less than 15 hours on the tractor, there was bare metal showing on the bead lip of the rim. And again, that's brand new. Imagine a rim and tire that's been on the job for 10 years or more. Probably find some bare metal there too, I'd expect.

EVer been around when someone is putting fluid in a tire? I've NEVER seen it done, even by "tire techs" for tire repair services, that SOME wasn't spilled on the rim when installing/removing the hose from the schraeder valve. That's a start on rust right there.

Isn't it a bit presumtuous to think EVERYONE uses a tractor as a hobby/toy/lawn mower and NOT as a full time work tool? Wouldn't there be a strong likelyhood that a more typical "working tractor" would get a scratch or two on the rims while on the job? ANOTHER possible rust spot.... It's easy to keep paint touched up, rims clean, and not a chance of a tire leak when a tractor does relatively little actual "hard work", but put one in the field for several hundred hours per year and it would be INSANE to try to deal with every little nick and scratch on a back rim. I've seen several of the best maintained tractors I know of that had to have rims replaced in a few years after a normal "on the job" tire puncture.

How many people do you suppose use cal/chlor in their tires as compared to the number of people who would remove their back tires, then clean and paint them every time they get a flat? Doubtfull it's even 1% who'll go that far.

Oil or grease by the valve stem? Petroleum products break down the rubber commonly used in inner tubes. I'd just as soon NOT start the tube down the wrong path by HELPING it to go bad around the valve stem, where 99% of inner tube failures occur anyway. (Most tire manufacturers even warn to NOT use petroleum products in place of tire lube (soap) when mounting their tires for this very reason)

Cal/chlor IS the CHEAPEST way to add weight to a tractor. It IS still the most popular way. But it DOES have inherent risk involved. If there WASN'T any risk, some people wouldn't be buying 100 1-gallon jugs of windshield washer solution, or paying freight to get "beet juice" shipped cross country to fill their tires. "Cheapest" may equate to "best" in some circles. But cheap initially may just be the most expensive over a LONG haul. I for one don't automatically draw a line between "best" and "cheapest". (In fact, I'm ALWAYS suspect of "cheapest" until it can be proven worthwhile) Usually "cheapest" comes with baggage. In this case it definately does.

Probably 75% or more of the "older" farm tractors you'll see will have SOME to a lot of rust and corrosion on the rims if it had cal/chlor in the rear tires at any point in its life. I only know of a handful of farmers who neglected their equipment. Most full time farmers rely on their tractors and take better care of them than their cars/trucks/houses/families.... It's not uncommon, even NORMAL to see them having to replace a rim every now and then. Maint HELPS, but it isn't any gaurantey of preventing rust from NORMAL use of cal/chlor. It happens.

Calcium Chloride IS a HIGHLY CORROSIVE compound. It WILL leak from a tube or tire on occasion. When it does leak , it does damage to one degree or another. It's just the risk you take. That's the INHERENT risk with cal/chlor. It won't make a rim disapear right before your eyes, but it WILL most likely do damage over the long haul ... That can be slowed, but there's absolutely no practical way to STOP it completely. The extreme measures that would need to be taken just plain ol' ISN'T in the scheme for probably 99.99% of us who use a tractor on a fulltime basis. That may be possible on a static collection, but why would anyone want fluid in tires on a tractor where it isn't even needed in the first place?

WOW! That's a long post. I never read any post over 2" long. Did anybody ever find out whether R-WEST was talking about a tube or tubeless tire? Looks like he got turned off by all the silly bickering and never came back. probably took it to a service station, (professional), and got it fixed.

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. I think placement is an issue.. however due to space.. there are few places that a battery could go, and not be inthe way of damaging something. on my old ( and nh ) fords.. the battery is right over the engine or bellhousing. For that reason lots of SN's get obliterated.

All we can do is try to mitigate the damage.. use rubber liners.. and keep the airea clean.. sealed batteries.. etc.

The battery in my yukon cracked while i was on vacation last year.. left us broke down at our hotel one morning. i used tripple A battery service to bring me a battery. I thought I had hosed everything down good, but fast forward 6 months, and all my rubber lines ( ww-wiper tank ) rotted away and I am replacing rubber parts as they die..

Speaking of placement.. how about fuel tanks! The 2 most common I see are front of steering wheel, or low mounted under a running board. Both have their disadvantage. The high one can be a pain to tote fuel up to, and the lower one is just begging to interfere with some debri on the ground... Again.. a no win soloution... just deal with what ya got...

Soundguy

Soundguy, I agree with what you say about all the damage from batteries. I feel that it's partly due to them trying to "hide" them under sheetmetal, plastic, etc, in an out of the way place (right in front of radiator/oil cooler). Seems like if they were out in the open, where air circulation would dissipate the fumes coming from the battery, problem would not be as severe. I think cars battery trays are in cramped quarters like some smaller tractors, so they corrode up more. In a truck, more space under hood, better circulation, less problems. What do you think? I guess it comes down to using new technology (sealed battery) to sidestep/overcome bad engineering (stupid battery location). Sorry, didn't mean to hijack thread.

 

[RWEST]

Holy mackerel!! Kinda' reminds me of the time I poked that hornet's nest with a stick when I was a kid.

Just got back after a weekend of dealing with winter (I guess that mild December and first 2/3 of January were just to soften us up, phew!!) and this is my first chance to review the posts.
1. If memory serves, the dealer said they fill the tires with windshield washer fluid.
2. It's a tubeless tire.
3. The fluid leakage is definitely around the stem. Is WW fluid corrosive? I imagine those wheels are pretty dear.
4. The tires are inflated to 25psi +/-.

Obviously, since I discovered the problem, I make certain the stem is "up", so I don't have to deal with the flat; as a result, I really haven't let the tire sit in the "leak" position since then to monitor it. I'll just keep making sure it's "up" until winter's done, then post what we found.

Thanks to all.

 

[Soundguy]

If it's tubeless. I'd just jack her up, rotate the stem up, depressurize, and snatch the stem.. inspect the hole for damage and slap a new stem in.. You can get the tool at napa I think.. as well as the stem. Some places also sell lube like bead lube etc to make it a little easier goin' in and more of a positive fit.

Air her back up and spray with some soapy water out of a spray bottle and if she don't leak you are good to go.

I've only had 1 tractor that was WW loaded.. I -personally- never had a leak or corrosion problem with it for the years i owned it. I don't have it anmore.. so that's the extent of my exp with WW loading.. I'm sure if there is a spate of WW coroded rims cases somebody will pipe up. I would think if WW fluid was harshly corrosive.. that it wouldn't be stored in tanks under our hoods, pumped thru many feet of hose, and randomly sprayed all over our vehicles.. but then.. you never know... (GRIN)

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Holy mackerel!! Kinda' reminds me of the time I poked that hornet's nest with a stick when I was a kid.

Just got back after a weekend of dealing with winter (I guess that mild December and first 2/3 of January were just to soften us up, phew!!) and this is my first chance to review the posts.
1. If memory serves, the dealer said they fill the tires with windshield washer fluid.
2. It's a tubeless tire.
3. The fluid leakage is definitely around the stem. Is WW fluid corrosive? I imagine those wheels are pretty dear.
4. The tires are inflated to 25psi +/-.

Obviously, since I discovered the problem, I make certain the stem is "up", so I don't have to deal with the flat; as a result, I really haven't let the tire sit in the "leak" position since then to monitor it. I'll just keep making sure it's "up" until winter's done, then post what we found.

Thanks to all.

Windshield washer fluid is non corrosive. No more than ordinary water anyway. That's its claim to fame. Besides not freezing in all but the harshest temperatures, it doesn't start eating away at metal like ca cl. There is some environmental questions regarding ww fluid. (methyl alcohol) I use it in tires on the tractor I bush hog with. (LOTS of flats) I've never noticed any plant kill from ww fluid. Ca cl will nuke grass.

You mention the leak being around the stem. Are we talking all the way to the base of the stem? If so, does your stem have a lock nut and washer holding it in place? If so, try GENTLEY tightening that nut. Sometimes jsy a slight turn can seal them.

All my tractors are 2wd. Not sure what that translates to on a 4wd, but I run 10 to 12 psi in my rear tires. (30 to 35 in fronts)

 

[Soundguy]

One more on rim protection.

I think i saw it mentioned here about rims being galvanized. While I have seen a few galvanized ones( or regalvanized ones.. ).. I've seen plenty more cad plated rims ( and gas tanks ).

From what I've seen the plated rims or galv rims seems to hold up much better than painted rims to corrosion. Anyone else using plated or coated rims vs painted ones? ( I see lots of oldies with plated.. ) Most new tractors i see have painted rims.. any new production tractors using plated?

Soundguy

 

[daTeacha]

3. The fluid leakage is definitely around the stem. Is WW fluid corrosive? I imagine those wheels are pretty dear.

Do you mean there is no fluid coming out of the valve, but rather between the valve and the rim? Different things have different names in different places. To me, the core is the center part of the valve, the stem is the part that sticks up from the rim, and it's a part of the valve body, which is everything except the core and cap. If it's leaking between the valve and the rim, it could be an incorrect or improperly installed valve, maybe one designed for a rim made of thinner or thicker steel than what you have.

It's still weird that fluid leaks out and air doesn't. Maybe the volume is so small it doesn't affect the pressure to a measureable extent when it's only air that leaks. It's been a long time since your first post. Did you check the pressure after finding signs of a fluid leak?

 

[RWEST]

It's been a long time since your first post.

Actually, the problem showed up some time ago (months). I've been meaning to "get around to fixing it", but, with the million +1 things to do that have kept me from it, I just make sure I park it with the stem up.
The tires have been on the wheels since I got the tractor in '02, but, the problem just appeared in October or so of last year. Come spring, I promise I'll get it off there and see what's what.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Actually, the problem showed up some time ago (months). I've been meaning to "get around to fixing it", but, with the million +1 things to do that have kept me from it, I just make sure I park it with the stem up.
The tires have been on the wheels since I got the tractor in '02, but, the problem just appeared in October or so of last year. Come spring, I promise I'll get it off there and see what's what.

Distortion of the rimhole combined with rust or cracks? Slightly lower pressure on valve when at the top?
Farfetched but all I can think of that fits what youve said.
Larry

 

[Egon]

Take the cap off of the stem. and spray the stem with a mixture of dish washing soap and water. Bubbles should form at the leak. There are also commercial products just for this purpose. Some people just spit on the area and rub it around.

I am guessing the entire valve core will have to be replaced. You may be able to do this without removing the tire but not sure??

 

[Jim_Fisher]

Take the cap off of the stem. and spray the stem with a mixture of dish washing soap and water. Bubbles should form at the leak. There are also commercial products just for this purpose. Some people just spit on the area and rub it around.

I am guessing the entire valve core will have to be replaced. You may be able to do this without removing the tire but not sure??

When I attempted to check the rear tire pressure on my John Deere 3010 last weekend, the valve core on one of the tires pretty much disintegrated. I replaced the valve inserts on both rear tires.

Jacked the rear of the tractor up, one side at a time. Rotated the tire until the valve was at 12 o'clock, screwed out the old insert and screwed the new one in. Added air to the proper pressure (14 psi) and lowered the tractor.

I might have been able to get away with just changing the valve core, but for about a dollar, it didn't seem to be worth the effort to try to dig the remains of the old core out of the valve insert.

 

[Egon]

Maybe explain with a little more detail on how you switched out the valve core Jim. I've never done it and am interested.

Thanks.

 

[Jim_Fisher]

Maybe explain with a little more detail on how you switched out the valve core Jim. I've never done it and am interested.

Thanks.

Most rear ag tractors have a tire valve with a replaceable core housing that contains the valve core. The valve stem of the tube (or tubeless valve) has a larger inside diameter than an automotive valve in order to allow liquid ballast to be added efficiently.

The inside of the valve stem is threaded and has a seat machined in it. The core housing threads into the valve stem and has a rubber seal attached to the end which contacts the seat and provides a seal. Inside the core housing is a standard automotive type valve core.

Here is a link to an illustration of the core housing - item 17-587.

patchboy: TR #CH-3, Core Housing for TR #218A & TR #618A, 1 Piece

To check or adjust the air pressure on a liquid ballasted tire I ordinarily roll the wheel until the valve is at the 12 o'clock position. This assures that the valve is above the ballast. This can be done by simply moving the tractor. If the valve core or core housing is to be replaced, I jack the tractor up so that the weight of the tractor will not force air and liquid ballast out of the tube while the valve stem is open. Unscrew the part that you intend to replace and screw the new part in.

It's a good idea to make sure that you have the right core housing before you remove the existing one. Older equipment used a tire valve that had external threads to hold the core housing and the two types are not interchangable.

I have had the misfortune to shear off the core housing on my compact tractor, which doesn't have liquid ballast. I now carry a spare in the toolbox.

 

[Egon]

Thank You.