Really Weird Tire Losing Air Issue

[Egon]

Just for interest does your tire have a tube and what is it filled with?

Where on the stem does the leak appear?

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Nothing inherantly wrong with CACL.. It's about the cheapest, easiest weight you can add.

Just have to do a bit of maintenance.

#1,, start with clean painted rims.

#2, start with a new tube.. not an old leaky one from 1957.

#3, When you notice corrosion around the valve stem.. start thinking about a new tube. I generally try to force some oil or grease down the core/stem of my tubes with fluid. That small film barrier makes a huge difference.

soundguy

Not enough "wrong with it" that I don't use it in several tractors, but it's totally ridiculous to think of removing a tire/tube and repainting the wheel every time a leak occurs. If a person is overwhelmed with spare time, or just that ****, I suppose he could remove rear tires and do "routine mainenance" on his wheels, but in all likelyhood, a tractor tire won't be coming off a rim until it needs either "flat repair" or tire replacement. Most times, the tire isn't even removed to deal with a puncture. Break down ONE SIDE, reach in and remove the tube, stuff in a new one, air it up and get back in the field is the more "normal" routine.

Who on earth do you suppose would install a 50 year old leaky inner tube? Do you suppose a NEW tube might get a leak? I'd bet THAT happens once in a while too.

Do you suppose it's likely that even a NEW, or well painted rim can have a tractor tire mounted on it without ANY scratches on the edges of the bead lip? Not gonna happen. Tire irons are tough on painted edges of rims. Bare metal there.....

Pull a tire off of a rim where it's been mounted for any lenght of time. The tire will rub the paint off where the inner edge of the bead contacts the rim. I just last week helped my son install tubes in the rear wheels of his NEW Deere. (It came with tubeless tires) He wanted tubes before installing cal/chlor. When we broke down the bead on a NEW tire/wheel with less than 15 hours on the tractor, there was bare metal showing on the bead lip of the rim. And again, that's brand new. Imagine a rim and tire that's been on the job for 10 years or more. Probably find some bare metal there too, I'd expect.

EVer been around when someone is putting fluid in a tire? I've NEVER seen it done, even by "tire techs" for tire repair services, that SOME wasn't spilled on the rim when installing/removing the hose from the schraeder valve. That's a start on rust right there.

Isn't it a bit presumtuous to think EVERYONE uses a tractor as a hobby/toy/lawn mower and NOT as a full time work tool? Wouldn't there be a strong likelyhood that a more typical "working tractor" would get a scratch or two on the rims while on the job? ANOTHER possible rust spot.... It's easy to keep paint touched up, rims clean, and not a chance of a tire leak when a tractor does relatively little actual "hard work", but put one in the field for several hundred hours per year and it would be INSANE to try to deal with every little nick and scratch on a back rim. I've seen several of the best maintained tractors I know of that had to have rims replaced in a few years after a normal "on the job" tire puncture.

How many people do you suppose use cal/chlor in their tires as compared to the number of people who would remove their back tires, then clean and paint them every time they get a flat? Doubtfull it's even 1% who'll go that far.

Oil or grease by the valve stem? Petroleum products break down the rubber commonly used in inner tubes. I'd just as soon NOT start the tube down the wrong path by HELPING it to go bad around the valve stem, where 99% of inner tube failures occur anyway. (Most tire manufacturers even warn to NOT use petroleum products in place of tire lube (soap) when mounting their tires for this very reason)

Cal/chlor IS the CHEAPEST way to add weight to a tractor. It IS still the most popular way. But it DOES have inherent risk involved. If there WASN'T any risk, some people wouldn't be buying 100 1-gallon jugs of windshield washer solution, or paying freight to get "beet juice" shipped cross country to fill their tires. "Cheapest" may equate to "best" in some circles. But cheap initially may just be the most expensive over a LONG haul. I for one don't automatically draw a line between "best" and "cheapest". (In fact, I'm ALWAYS suspect of "cheapest" until it can be proven worthwhile) Usually "cheapest" comes with baggage. In this case it definately does.

Probably 75% or more of the "older" farm tractors you'll see will have SOME to a lot of rust and corrosion on the rims if it had cal/chlor in the rear tires at any point in its life. I only know of a handful of farmers who neglected their equipment. Most full time farmers rely on their tractors and take better care of them than their cars/trucks/houses/families.... It's not uncommon, even NORMAL to see them having to replace a rim every now and then. Maint HELPS, but it isn't any gaurantey of preventing rust from NORMAL use of cal/chlor. It happens.

Calcium Chloride IS a HIGHLY CORROSIVE compound. It WILL leak from a tube or tire on occasion. When it does leak , it does damage to one degree or another. It's just the risk you take. That's the INHERENT risk with cal/chlor. It won't make a rim disapear right before your eyes, but it WILL most likely do damage over the long haul ... That can be slowed, but there's absolutely no practical way to STOP it completely. The extreme measures that would need to be taken just plain ol' ISN'T in the scheme for probably 99.99% of us who use a tractor on a fulltime basis. That may be possible on a static collection, but why would anyone want fluid in tires on a tractor where it isn't even needed in the first place?

 

[joerocker]

Actually, water H2O is SMALLER than air molecules O2 or N2. Nitrogens atomic number is 7 and with 2 atoms together is 14. Oxygen is 8 and 2 together is 16. Water is 1 oxygen and 2 hydrogen that together add up to 10. Granted, the difference in the ACTUAL physical size is nil, but just for the record...water is a smaller molecule than the typical "air" molecule. You must also account for surface tension, charges, bonds, etc. in deciding which will leak faster.

 

[Soundguy]

You didn't read my message very close.

I never said to dismount a tire and repain the rims every time a leak occurs.

( Besides the fact that if you have a tube tire, and you get a leak.. you WILL be dismounting it to repair it ).

I said 'start' with a clean, well painted rim. I like epoxy paints.. they stand up to abuse pretty good.. While the outside ring on the top edge of the bead may get scratched from an iron.. the other 99.768 % of the rim surface that is in contact with the tube should be protected... and if a film of cacl gets inbetween the tube and well painted rim.. there won't be any rust, except on that very most outside ring.

Old tubes? Every time i go to the tire store to get new tires or tubes.. or tires mounted, there is ALWAYS another tractor in there with the farmer ahead of me saving 13$ and reusing his old tubes. I think I'm the only guy that shops at that tire store that faithfully buys a new tube every time I change a casing.

I see by the tone of your message that it is time to put you back on my ignore list as you are becoming agressive and abrassive,, even though I'm trying to have a polite discuission.

so.. later... Don't bother replying.. I won't see it!

I'll check back again in another month or so and see if you are back to being civil... Lifes to short to email people who can't have a civil conversation...

For the record.. i find it offensive that you imply that my only experience with a tire is in a hobby / toy environment. My tractors do real work.. besides.. 40 hrs a week i can look out my window at my day job at about 2 million$ workth of heavy equipment... about 75% of it has rubber tires. Anything that isn't 'roaded'.. has cacl in them. We don't have machines blowing up into a pile of rust every day... I've been with this general contractor 14 years now. I know of NO rim replacements. If a tire leaks.. we break it down, put a new tube in.. wash it up and repaint it and slap it back on... no big deal.. Some of our stuff is tubeless. We actually have a few more problems with those than the tube models.

Also of note.. I take it you are not familair with non petro based grease.. like food grade greases... We routinely used chevron food grade greases to lube orings in the water meter plant I used to work in. ( it's commonly available by the tube too... )

Soundguy

Not enough "wrong with it" that I don't use it in several tractors, but it's totally ridiculous to think of removing a tire/tube and repainting the wheel every time a leak occurs. If a person is overwhelmed with spare time, or just that ****, I suppose he could remove rear tires and do "routine mainenance" on his wheels, but in all likelyhood, a tractor tire won't be coming off a rim until it needs either "flat repair" or tire replacement. Most times, the tire isn't even removed to deal with a puncture. Break down ONE SIDE, reach in and remove the tube, stuff in a new one, air it up and get back in the field is the more "normal" routine.

Who on earth do you suppose would install a 50 year old leaky inner tube? Do you suppose a NEW tube might get a leak? I'd bet THAT happens once in a while too.

Do you suppose it's likely that even a NEW, or well painted rim can have a tractor tire mounted on it without ANY scratches on the edges of the bead lip? Not gonna happen. Tire irons are tough on painted edges of rims. Bare metal there.....

Pull a tire off of a rim where it's been mounted for any lenght of time. The tire will rub the paint off where the inner edge of the bead contacts the rim. I just last week helped my son install tubes in the rear wheels of his NEW Deere. (It came with tubeless tires) He wanted tubes before installing cal/chlor. When we broke down the bead on a NEW tire/wheel with less than 15 hours on the tractor, there was bare metal showing on the bead lip of the rim. And again, that's brand new. Imagine a rim and tire that's been on the job for 10 years or more. Probably find some bare metal there too, I'd expect.

EVer been around when someone is putting fluid in a tire? I've NEVER seen it done, even by "tire techs" for tire repair services, that SOME wasn't spilled on the rim when installing/removing the hose from the schraeder valve. That's a start on rust right there.

Isn't it a bit presumtuous to think EVERYONE uses a tractor as a hobby/toy/lawn mower and NOT as a full time work tool? Wouldn't there be a strong likelyhood that a more typical "working tractor" would get a scratch or two on the rims while on the job? ANOTHER possible rust spot.... It's easy to keep paint touched up, rims clean, and not a chance of a tire leak when a tractor does relatively little actual "hard work", but put one in the field for several hundred hours per year and it would be INSANE to try to deal with every little nick and scratch on a back rim. I've seen several of the best maintained tractors I know of that had to have rims replaced in a few years after a normal "on the job" tire puncture.

How many people do you suppose use cal/chlor in their tires as compared to the number of people who would remove their back tires, then clean and paint them every time they get a flat? Doubtfull it's even 1% who'll go that far.

Oil or grease by the valve stem? Petroleum products break down the rubber commonly used in inner tubes. I'd just as soon NOT start the tube down the wrong path by HELPING it to go bad around the valve stem, where 99% of inner tube failures occur anyway. (Most tire manufacturers even warn to NOT use petroleum products in place of tire lube (soap) when mounting their tires for this very reason)

Cal/chlor IS the CHEAPEST way to add weight to a tractor. It IS still the most popular way. But it DOES have inherent risk involved. If there WASN'T any risk, some people wouldn't be buying 100 1-gallon jugs of windshield washer solution, or paying freight to get "beet juice" shipped cross country to fill their tires. "Cheapest" may equate to "best" in some circles. But cheap initially may just be the most expensive over a LONG haul. I for one don't automatically draw a line between "best" and "cheapest". (In fact, I'm ALWAYS suspect of "cheapest" until it can be proven worthwhile) Usually "cheapest" comes with baggage. In this case it definately does.

Probably 75% or more of the "older" farm tractors you'll see will have SOME to a lot of rust and corrosion on the rims if it had cal/chlor in the rear tires at any point in its life. I only know of a handful of farmers who neglected their equipment. Most full time farmers rely on their tractors and take better care of them than their cars/trucks/houses/families.... It's not uncommon, even NORMAL to see them having to replace a rim every now and then. Maint HELPS, but it isn't any gaurantey of preventing rust from NORMAL use of cal/chlor. It happens.

Calcium Chloride IS a HIGHLY CORROSIVE compound. It WILL leak from a tube or tire on occasion. When it does leak , it does damage to one degree or another. It's just the risk you take. That's the INHERENT risk with cal/chlor. It won't make a rim disapear right before your eyes, but it WILL most likely do damage over the long haul ... That can be slowed, but there's absolutely no practical way to STOP it completely. The extreme measures that would need to be taken just plain ol' ISN'T in the scheme for probably 99.99% of us who use a tractor on a fulltime basis. That may be possible on a static collection, but why would anyone want fluid in tires on a tractor where it isn't even needed in the first place?

 

[daTeacha]

JoeRocker -- FYI, the size of an element's atoms is not necessarily reflected in the atomic number or atomic mass. In fact, as you go from left to right across a period of the periodic table, the size of the atoms will decrease.

An oxygen molecule will have a functional distance along the long axis of about 266 pm, while one of nitrogen will be more like 280 pm. Across the short axis, the respective diameters are about 132 and 140 pm (1 atom). In a molecule of water, the central atom of oxygen will have a radius of about 66pm and the attendant atoms of hydrogen will be around 30 pm in radius, but those are at an angle of about 104.5 degrees from one another and not in a nice straight line, giving the molecule a functional diameter larger than the short axis diameter of either oxygen or nitrogen.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

You didn't read my message very close.

I never said to dismount a tire and repain the rims every time a leak occurs.

( Besides the fact that if you have a tube tire, and you get a leak.. you WILL be dismounting it to repair it ).

I said 'start' with a clean, well painted rim. I like epoxy paints.. they stand up to abuse pretty good.. While the outside ring on the top edge of the bead may get scratched from an iron.. the other 99.768 % of the rim surface that is in contact with the tube should be protected... and if a film of cacl gets inbetween the tube and well painted rim.. there won't be any rust, except on that very most outside ring.

Old tubes? Every time i go to the tire store to get new tires or tubes.. or tires mounted, there is ALWAYS another tractor in there with the farmer ahead of me saving 13$ and reusing his old tubes. I think I'm the only guy that shops at that tire store that faithfully buys a new tube every time I change a casing.

I see by the tone of your message that it is time to put you back on my ignore list as you are becoming agressive and abrassive,, even though I'm trying to have a polite discuission.

so.. later... Don't bother replying.. I won't see it!

I'll check back again in another month or so and see if you are back to being civil... Lifes to short to email people who can't have a civil conversation...

For the record.. i find it offensive that you imply that my only experience with a tire is in a hobby / toy environment. My tractors do real work.. besides.. 40 hrs a week i can look out my window at my day job at about 2 million$ workth of heavy equipment... about 75% of it has rubber tires. Anything that isn't 'roaded'.. has cacl in them. We don't have machines blowing up into a pile of rust every day... I've been with this general contractor 14 years now. I know of NO rim replacements. If a tire leaks.. we break it down, put a new tube in.. wash it up and repaint it and slap it back on... no big deal.. Some of our stuff is tubeless. We actually have a few more problems with those than the tube models.

Also of note.. I take it you are not familair with non petro based grease.. like food grade greases... We routinely used chevron food grade greases to lube orings in the water meter plant I used to work in. ( it's commonly available by the tube too... )

Soundguy

Take your ball and go home, the big kids were being mean to little Chris.


$2,000,000 worth of heavy equipment.... Hmmmm We have one single piece ( crane) sitting outside our shop at work that would break that budget, and yet I don't claim that makes me any more the wiser.

Is your o ring in the water meter plant made out of an inner tube? Or a tractor tire? Doubtful it's the same material. If it's in an application that requires grease, I'm sure someone along the trail THOUGH of that.

I guess there's 15 websites (that I know of) selling replacment rims because cal/ chlor doesn't effect the old ones?

Why do you suppose it's ok to make a ridiculous statement such as cal chlor not having any inherent problems, then get all in a snit when someone calls you on it?


Aggressive and abrasive? Is that what you call it when someone mentions you're talking nonsense? Polite discussion? I thought you were the one that called the "discussion" off.

So ignore away. I have no reason to stick my head in the sand.

 

[joerocker]

Thanks Teacha!

I was thinking that it was bigger because of it's greater electron count, and more shells. I looked it up and low and behold, it doesn't seem to matter how many electron shells an atom has, they're all "close" to the same size. I thought each new electron shell would double the atoms size. Doesn't seem to work that way.

And, I thought since the hydrogen bonds were covalent that the hydrogen would be all but absorbed into the oxygen.

Chemistry wasn't my major.

It NEVER fails, the more you learn, the more you find out what you DON'T know.

 

[tallyho8]

JoeRocker -- FYI, the size of an element's atoms is not necessarily reflected in the atomic number or atomic mass. In fact, as you go from left to right across a period of the periodic table, the size of the atoms will decrease.QUOTE]

I feel like I'm back in school again. It's amazing what you can learn on a tractor forum.

 

[Soundguy]

On the subject of rust damage. While i've seen comments about vintage tractors with some cacl damage.. no doubt for lack of maintenance or servicing, and sheer neglect that many old tractors face.. not to mention. plain old age... I've yet to see a spate of cacl fatalities with any frequency on new equipment. now what I have seen is battery acid damage. I've probably heard more cases of battery acid damage, on new tractors, than all cases of cacl from both old and new. We need to get some perspective on use, corrosion, and damage.

A tractor is made to be used. it's a logical conclusion that use will expose a tractor to damage and wear. Items like cacl are agravating factors. Same with leaky batteries. Best thing you can do is try to limit exposure as much as possible while still getting an acceptable amount of usefull work out of the tractor. When problems occur.. mitigate them and move on.

Run a cost benefit assesment... Limit your exposure to risk based on what you consider acceptable losses. if loosing a tractor rim in 50 years is not acceptable losses compaired with the benefit of pretty much the cheapest freeze proof ballast.. then don't do it...

It's all a pay me now or pay me later issue. Pay more upfront for balalst, and have less problems. Pay less up front and expect to have a few 'pay later' repairs down the road.

To be fair.. i never said CACL was without risk.. I merely implied that you just have to keep on top of problems. the battery issue will be the same. If you notice corrosion.. address the problem.. There ahve been posts here on this board about battery acid problems eating radiators and oil coolers. Fast too.. not decades.. but weeks and months. What to do? get rid of batteries? Get better batteries that cost more? (sealed).. fix problems as they come up and repair and make workar ounds as you go? All possible answers.. some better than others.

Lastly.. a tractor is a tool.. use it.. Using it may break it... that doesn't mean don't use it. Same with life and death. As far as i know..leading cause of death is life. Can't set at home locke dup in your house afraind of all the things that may happen to you.. You got to get out there and expose yourself to some risk and get some work done and live.

You are afraid of calc? don't use it... ( You might as well take your battery out too... battery acid damage can show up WAY faster than CACL damage ).

Soundguy

 

[BTDT]

Soundguy, I agree with what you say about all the damage from batteries. I feel that it's partly due to them trying to "hide" them under sheetmetal, plastic, etc, in an out of the way place (right in front of radiator/oil cooler). Seems like if they were out in the open, where air circulation would dissipate the fumes coming from the battery, problem would not be as severe. I think cars battery trays are in cramped quarters like some smaller tractors, so they corrode up more. In a truck, more space under hood, better circulation, less problems. What do you think? I guess it comes down to using new technology (sealed battery) to sidestep/overcome bad engineering (stupid battery location). Sorry, didn't mean to hijack thread.