Need Advice for Homemade FEL

[chevyzr2s10]

Im am planning to build a FEL for my Cub Cadet 1204. It has a Kohler Magnum 12HP engine. I plan to run the pump via belt drive off of the front electric clutch PTO.

I am considering running the following pump.Burden Sales Surplus Center Item Detail My engine turns about 3600rpm at full speed. I plan to gear down the pump to turn about 2500rpm at max speed. Which should give me a little over 7 GPM at full speed.

I am considering the following cylinders for both the bucket and arms. Burden Sales Surplus Center Item Detail They seem like a good deal and the stroke and length should work out good.

My questions
1. Is the DYNAMIC pump a good one? It is a good price but I am concerned about longevity because it is aluminum. If not, can you reccommend a different brand.

2. Does the pump (.73 displacement) seem like a good match for my application? If not, can you reccommend a size.

3. Do the cylinders seem good for my application?

4. Can you reccomend a valve for my loader? I would like a joystick type. Do I need the regeneration feature for my size loader? I have found a loader valve on Ebay which dosen't have regen for a good price, but im not sure about the quality. What is the best place to get a good valve for a good price?

5. Any other advice you can offer for me.

Thank you I really appreciate your help. I am new to TBN but it has been extremely helpful .

 

[Farmerford]

Here is a quick response.

The correct way is to first determine what additional load your front axle will tolerate. I have no idea, but suspect that a 12 hp tractor will not be happy with more than 300# (including the loader weight) on the front axle, especially with much of it hanging off two or three feet in front of the axle. I have a Kubota B2400 that is 24 hp and fairly heavily built, and its stated loader capacity is 750#. It will barely lift that much, and neither the power steering nor the weight of the tractor compete very well with such a load. The cylinders are about 2" id, and I think the design pressure is 2200 psi.

Your 1 3/4" id cylinders are probably too large if you use 2000-2500psi (in the sense that they will lift more than the tractor can tolerate). But smaller cylinders with an adequate stroke are hard to find because the rod size gets so small that they bend easily at extension. Therefore, you may need to limit your system pressure to 1500 psi or so (just a wild guess) with those cylinders.

The 7 gpm pump is also a bit oversize. 7 gpm @ 1500 psi requires about 7 horsepower to drive it. So, if you have a maximum load that requires 1500 psi to lift, you will be using over half the gross horsepower of your engine (assuming no losses in the reduction gear, etc.) If you are simultaneously pushing into a pile of dirt and lifting the boom, you may run out of power. My B2400 has a 5gpm pump for the FEL and it moves more quickly than I prefer. So you could reduce your pump size to 4 or 5 gpm. At 5 gpm, a 1 3/4" cylinder will move about 8"/sec, so two cylinders will move about 4"/sec (just rough head math). Your 20" stroke will require about 5sec for full extension, and somewhat less for retraction. That's plenty fast for old guys like me.

For comparison, my John Deere 455D crawler loader has a 23gpm pump and even at moderate engine speeds it drives the 4 1/4" id boom cylinders with plenty of speed. Those cylinders have nearly six times the volume per inch as your 1 3/4" id cylinders, but your 7 gpm pump is nearly 1/3 the size of mine. So your cylinders would move twice as fast as those on my industrial machine if you used a 7 gpm pump.

I did not look up your pump, but be sure it can be belt driven. Many pumps do not have adequate (any?) bearings on the input end of the shaft to carry any side load because they are intended to be mounted with the shaft inserted into a stable drive shaft which keeps the pump shaft centered.

I don't think the additional dumping speed of a regenerative spool is very useful for a small FEL, but you should get a float spool for the booms.

Keep us posted.

 

[chevyzr2s10]

Thank you very much for the response.

My tractor has a very solid cast iron front axle. The spindles can be upgraded. I also have some other ideas in mind to beef it up if I need to. It dosent have power steering but it does have a nice steering box for a garden tractor. Later on I have a feeling that I will be upgrading to power steering depending on how good the loader works. I also plan to fill the tires and add a weight box to the rear to counter balance some of the weight off the front axle.

Im not sure what capacity im building it for yet. Im looking at building a 38" to 40" wide bucket so it is just a little bit wider than my front tires. I would like to be able to lift a decently full bucket of gravel or sand, which ever is heavier. Does anyone know the approximate density of sand or gravel?

When deciding how many GPM I would need I did the calculations and tried imagining in my head how fast the loader would move. I haven't driven a loader in a long time so it was difficult to picture how fast they move. I think I over estimated how many GPM I would need. Thanks for the info about your tractor. I think I will look at getting a 4-5 GPM pump.

Also I did't realize that about belt driven pumps. Im not sure about the pump I looked up. If I can't find a suitable pump I may have to design a bearing support for the pump pulley. It won't be to difficult, but I want to try to avoid that if I can.

 

[kennyd]

FarmerFord covered a well as usual...I can only add a recommendation for a joystick valve from the SurplusCenter. Watch the eBay deals

 

[Farmerford]

Kennyd is right on with his recommendation of a valve.

I figure dry sand at about 110#/cf. Wet sand, mud, and gravel (crushed stone) weigh around 150#/cf. I usually figure 200# to give a little room for error.

Consider using a junk yard power steering pump (preferably with a remote reservoir that you can easily enlarge) as an interim source of pressurized fluid just to experiment with. They are usually set to about 1500psi, and an older one will have a v-belt pulley. That will let you focus on the loader frame, etc first. Try to find one with an outlet fitting that is either JIC or SAE 45 deg flare or an inverted flare for which adapters are available.

A 38" wide bucket with an 18" floor and 18" back at 90deg will hold about 2 1/2cf struck, and perhaps 3 1/2 cf heaped. Those loads of gravel or mud will weigh about 400 to 550# and will be sitting a couple of feet in front of your axle. I suspect they are a bit more than your tractor will be comfortable with.

We look forward to seeing some pictures.

 

[chevyzr2s10]

FarmerFord covered a well as usual...I can only add a recommendation for a joystick valve from the SurplusCenter. Watch the eBay deals

Thanks for the reply. The valve you recommended from the surplus center looks extremely similar to the ones on eBay. I emailed the seller of the eBay valve and he said it was manufactured by a different company for TMI. I could not find any thing on TMI. Is there any chance that it is just a BRAND valve with a different label. I'm just trying to save money where I can.

 

[chevyzr2s10]

Kennyd is right on with his recommendation of a valve.

I figure dry sand at about 110#/cf. Wet sand, mud, and gravel (crushed stone) weigh around 150#/cf. I usually figure 200# to give a little room for error.

Consider using a junk yard power steering pump (preferably with a remote reservoir that you can easily enlarge) as an interim source of pressurized fluid just to experiment with. They are usually set to about 1500psi, and an older one will have a v-belt pulley. That will let you focus on the loader frame, etc first. Try to find one with an outlet fitting that is either JIC or SAE 45 deg flare or an inverted flare for which adapters are available.

A 38" wide bucket with an 18" floor and 18" back at 90deg will hold about 2 1/2cf struck, and perhaps 3 1/2 cf heaped. Those loads of gravel or mud will weigh about 400 to 550# and will be sitting a couple of feet in front of your axle. I suspect they are a bit more than your tractor will be comfortable with.

We look forward to seeing some pictures.

Thanks FarmerFord. All these numbers are really helping me get an idea on how I should design this. I think a full bucket of sand may be a little too much for my tractor to handle. Its fine with me if I can't take full scoops with the heavy stuff.

I like the idea of experimenting with a power steering pump. I think I have a few old ones from a 1/2 ton pickup around here I can use.

I don't think I will have any real pictures until after the holidays because there is still a lot of planning to do. I'm am currently studying engineering in college and I will be making full use of the CAD modeling and simulation software I have at school to design this thing (I know its way overkill for such a simple design but I'm using it as a learning experience). So I may have a few CAD model pictures to post and get feedback on soon.

 

[kennyd]

Thanks for the reply. The valve you recommended from the surplus center looks extremely similar to the ones on eBay. I emailed the seller of the eBay valve and he said it was manufactured by a different company for TMI. I could not find any thing on TMI. Is there any chance that it is just a BRAND valve with a different label. I'm just trying to save money where I can.

Did you ask about that valve the other day? If so then the post was deleted because it had a link to eBay in it...If it wasn't you, then someone else asked about it and now the post is deleted

My reply was I did not think the one on eBay was a good deal...the seller said it had no numbers on it so it was probably not made for retail sale and thus no parts would be available for it.

 

[chevyzr2s10]

Did you ask about that valve the other day? If so then the post was deleted because it had a link to eBay in it...If it wasn't you, then someone else asked about it and now the post is deleted

My reply was I did not think the one on eBay was a good deal...the seller said it had no numbers on it so it was probably not made for retail sale and thus no parts would be available for it.

Yes I posted the other day about the valve. I didn't know I couldn't link to eBay. I didn't get a chance to see your post before it was deleted. I emailed the seller again to ask a few more questions. I agree that it isn't a good deal if I can't get any parts for it. I'm waiting to see if the seller will give more information. There is no way I'm going to buy a valve without more information about it.

 

[kennyd]

I didn't know I couldn't link to eBay

Yeah, that is a no-no 'round here. Nice of the Moderators to let you know they deleted your post-NOT after it got at least one reply...

But anyway, I think that valve was only $35.00 less than the one I linked, just not a good enough deal for me to buy a unknown valve.