Getting screwed on warranty!

[RickB]

Does anyone know, are the big 3 brands designed the same way? The loopback hose is one solution. Are there others that can be designed in? Like may a valve that returns to neutral when dead head is sensed? Do they make a relief valve that can be put across the remotes?

I was told to watch for this and not to do it when my tractor was delivered. But, I can see how it would b easy to forget, or to accidentally engage it. It does make a pretty distinct whine when it dead heads. I'm always listening for unusual noises.

Open center hydraulic systems can and do damage pumps when pump flow is forced over relief at system pressure for extended periods. It makes no difference what color paint is on the tractor, or what the decals say. That is why many remote valves have no detents except for float. And also why pressure adjustable detents should only be set at or above relief pressure in special circumstances, and set "normally" when those circumstances end.
I have no idea what happened in this case and will not speculate. If there were no relief valve in the system at all, the damage would have been immediate and probably more catastrophic. Something along the lines of a split pump housing or blown connection.

 

[IslandTractor]

I've purchased two Kioti's. My first dealer did not mention this issue of deadheading the remotes at all. Luckily I never did it.

My second dealer read me the riot act and handed me a form that stated the warning and Kioti's warranty policy on fried pumps due to dead heading in large bold type. It made an impression. (For those of you who know Rick, his usual jovial self was turned off when he made this point).

A loop is probably the safest thing to do as then it doesn't matter if you forget or accidentally engage the remote without an implement attached.

I feel sympathy for the OP but it seems to me it is a dealer responsibility rather than Kioti's. This has nothing to do with Kioti design or manufacturing it is related to general principles of hydraulic equipment use. Most of us don't know squat about hydraulics when we buy the equipment so it seems the duty of a dealer to assess their customer's knowledge level and provide the appropriate orientation/warning.

 

[Jaybr]

I'm wondering if the relieve valve failed or something similar. According to what both my son and the dealer are telling me, the tractor wasn't run with the remotes engaged more than a minute or two. I know I never run it with the remotes engaged, and I check everything often. My son also said he never heard any strange noise before it went, he said he got on the tractor to move it and the lift arms wouldn't go up and then he noticed fluid dripping out the right side.

The chipper runs off the PTO, not hydrualic connection.

 

[IslandTractor]

Open center hydraulic systems can and do damage pumps when pump flow is forced over relief at system pressure for extended periods. It makes no difference what color paint is on the tractor, or what the decals say. That is why many remote valves have no detents except for float. And also why pressure adjustable detents should only be set at or above relief pressure in special circumstances, and set "normally" when those circumstances end.
I have no idea what happened in this case and will not speculate. If there were no relief valve in the system at all, the damage would have been immediate and probably more catastrophic. Something along the lines of a split pump housing or blown connection.

If I recall correctly the Kioti system does have a relief valve so there is no damage immediately when deadheaded but the relief valve can only transfer a portion of the pumped fluid so the rest gradually heats up and the heat damages the O rings etc. Apparently it takes about 10-15 minutes to get hot enough when deadheaded to start damaging the rings.

 

[Renze]

At full pressure, gear pumps will leak back about 10% of the oil back to the suction port. All the energy will be turned into heat at the relief valve.
However it amazes me that a pump could fry because of blowing over the relief valve ? The most heat is generated in the relief valve not the pump.
Off course these Kiotis have about the same hydraulic flow as our 5245 (bout 32 liter per minute) and a way smaller tank. (the 5245 holds about 45 liter in its rear end)
But as 32 liter at 175 bar is about 9 Kilowatt, you must have noticed this power consumption on a 25 Kw tractor....

 

[VictorW]

I'm wondering if the relieve valve failed or something similar. According to what both my son and the dealer are telling me, the tractor wasn't run with the remotes engaged more than a minute or two. I know I never run it with the remotes engaged, and I check everything often. My son also said he never heard any strange noise before it went, he said he got on the tractor to move it and the lift arms wouldn't go up and then he noticed fluid dripping out the right side.

The chipper runs off the PTO, not hydrualic connection.

Sorry, I was thinking you were using the tractor hydraulics to run the chipper. I've only seen big chippers running off pto shafts on much bigger tractors.
As Renze advised, you would notice a good power and rpm loss in the tractor. I feel this with my CK30hst if I'm using the remotes and don't release the lever instantly after the attached cylinder hits the end of the stroke.
It's nice to know that there are some dealers who will advise about deadheading the remotes for those that aren't familiar with tractors and hydraulics. I guess the question I have is if a pump fails, did it occur because of deadheading the remotes or it just failed due to a defect? And if you have remotes, is the warranty void on the pump?

 

[kenstrac]

A couple weeks ago while my son (20) was running the wood chipper on our CK35, the hydraulic pump sprung a leak. The tractor is just under 2 years old, and less than 200 hrs on it.

I called my dealer, they came and picked up the tractor, and over the past 2.5 weeks have replaced several different o-rings in the pump, and each time it blows another.

This morning I get a call from them telling me that they just realized that the rear remotes where engaged, and that was causing the problem. They also stated that since every time they started it up to test it the pump got extremely hot, that Kioti says they need to replace the pump as damage has been done.


It took the dealer 2.5 weeks and several O rings I think the dealer blew the pump.How come he did not notice the lever was engaged ,proper troubleshooting by the dealer in the first place would not gotten you where you are now

 

[Jaybr]

It took the dealer 2.5 weeks and several O rings I think the dealer blew the pump.How come he did not notice the lever was engaged ,proper troubleshooting by the dealer in the first place would not gotten you where you are now

I thought the same thing.

One of the first things Kioti rep asked the dealer was did the tractor have rear remotes, dealer responded NO. Both dealer and Kioti told me this.

Dealer replaced the first 0 ring, put it back together and another started leaking. They said immediatly, claimed they only ran it a few seconds and it leaked, also claimed the pump got too hot to touch.

Delear replaced second O ring and a third started leaking. Again, they claim they only ran it a few second, but also that the pump got too hot to touch.

After the third 0-ring the noticed it had rear remotes and the lever was engaged.

Kioti claims that since I brought it in for a leaking pump, that the damage was done before it got to dealer.

But according to my son, he only accidentaly engaged the lever then immediatly put it back to neutral. He didn't know what the lever was for, but he would certainly have noticed power loss in the tractor or the whine it makes in that situation.

So what doesn't add up to me is if the dealer only ran the tractor a few seconds, how did the oil in the pump get so hot they couldn't touch it in just a few seconds? I think they had to run the tractor for at least a few minutes for the oil to get that hot, and I suspect each time they ran it for the 15-20 minutes that Kioti claims it would take to blow an O-ring. If this is the case, the original problem could have been a simple defective O ring, and the dealer destroyed the pump.

 

[steve0413]

Wow, what a bummer. I have a new DK45SE with BH and wasn't told, nor have I read anything about this problem. Even with the warnings, this IS a defect in design and I can't believe you wouldn't get a court to rule in your favor. This would be equalivent to buying a new car and running the A/C during winter and causing your engine to blow or something similar.

I've found mine engaged when I don't remember engaging it, possibly from hitting it while getting in or out of the cab. Fortunately, the backhoe has been attached when it's happened.

I'd recommend being persistant and demand that Kioti fix this. This is a recall type problem.

Question. Since this is my first tractor with a backhoe. Can the remote with detent be used to operate any implement that uses a hydraulic cylinder? If so, am I to assume that the control will not go to neutral automatically when the cylinder is fully extended or contracted? I've operated several old A and B model John Deere's 40 years ago and even then the detent would automatically return to neutral.

 

[rcrcomputing]

While this thread is playing out, let me get my ducks in a row...

On my rear remote, which I think is power beyond. I have a knob I have to reach way behind the when to turn. (Dealer said something about putting on a better knob when he delivered it years ago). It is rather inconvenient to reach though.

Every time I install the backhoe, I turn the knob all the way the other direction.
So, from what I'm reading, I if failed to do that, I'd hear a whining and have 15 seconds to fix it or my pump would blow up?

Just getting the facts straight so it doesn't happen to me someday..