Getting screwed on warranty!

[JoelD]

I thought the same thing.

One of the first things Kioti rep asked the dealer was did the tractor have rear remotes, dealer responded NO. Both dealer and Kioti told me this.

Dealer replaced the first 0 ring, put it back together and another started leaking. They said immediatly, claimed they only ran it a few seconds and it leaked, also claimed the pump got too hot to touch.

Delear replaced second O ring and a third started leaking. Again, they claim they only ran it a few second, but also that the pump got too hot to touch.

After the third 0-ring the noticed it had rear remotes and the lever was engaged.

Kioti claims that since I brought it in for a leaking pump, that the damage was done before it got to dealer.

But according to my son, he only accidentaly engaged the lever then immediatly put it back to neutral. He didn't know what the lever was for, but he would certainly have noticed power loss in the tractor or the whine it makes in that situation.

So what doesn't add up to me is if the dealer only ran the tractor a few seconds, how did the oil in the pump get so hot they couldn't touch it in just a few seconds? I think they had to run the tractor for at least a few minutes for the oil to get that hot, and I suspect each time they ran it for the 15-20 minutes that Kioti claims it would take to blow an O-ring. If this is the case, the original problem could have been a simple defective O ring, and the dealer destroyed the pump.

What does not add up to me is:

He installed o-ring, ran machine, DID NOT NOTICE DEADHEAD, srung a leak, replaced another o-ring, ran machine, DID NOT NOTICE DEADHEAD, sprung a leak. Third pass he notices deadhead.

Let's be real, you are a mechanic, you start a machine, the sort of which you've started, lets say, maybe 1500 times in the past and you don't notice DEADHEAD. Please. Again, just document everything, tell him to call you when it's done and you'll have all your documentation, if he disputes, pass along to Kioti, if the regional rep disputes, then go to national, if they dispute then go to court. I honestly don't see it going that far.

If what you say above is fact, it makes no sense to me, you've got a warrnty and they need to honor it.

Is this any different than lifting your loader to the max and holding it there for 3 days, blowing up a seal or a relief valve or something and they denying the claim???

Bottom line, they have no idea what caused the pump to fail and you are entitled to satisfaction.

Documentation, documentation, documentation.

Good luck,
Joel

 

[Jaybr]

I have documented every phone call, including the one with the Kioti corporate service guy who worked with my dealer throughout the entire problem.

I can see how this will play out in court if it gets that far.

Kioti: "The tractor was run with rear remotes engaged with no implement attached, the operator was using the tractor innappropriatly and causing damage to the hydraulic pump which we will not cover under warranty."

Me: "I had no idea that engaging the rear remotes could cause a problem with the tractor. Nowhere in my owners manual does it state that running the tractor with rear remotes engaged without an implement attached will cause any damage to the tractor. In fact there are no instructions or warnings in the manual at all regarding the rear remotes, which where installed by the Kioti dealer as part of the Kioti backhoe installation."

"In fact, the Certified Kioti Mechanic replaced 3 different seals in the pump, testing each time with the rear remotes engaged, all while troubleshooting a hydraulic pump leak issue. The mechanic was informed by Kioti that they believed there was something causing excessive pressure in the pump, but the mechanic while troubleshooting this problem didn't check the rear remote engagement."

"Apparently even the certified Kioti mechanic wasn't aware of this problem, how was I supposed to be?"

Judge: .......

 

[VictorW]

To Steve, the remotes can be used for any implement or cylinder that needs hydraulic power. On my CK30hst, the remote levers won't automatically go to neutral when the cylinder hits the end of travel. From it's detent position, you have to manually move it to neutral. With my KB2375 bh attached, it doesn't matter if the detent is engaged due to the bh valves working with an open center system and allowing the hydraulic fluid to keep flowing back to the tractor. I have a hydraulic top link and hydraulic angle on my front loader arm mounted snow plow. I never engage the detent because it would stay there deadheading the fluid. I only use detent for the bh because I want the constant flow of fluid for the bh.

To rcrcomputing, I used to have a valve, I think like you're describing, that was on the right side of the tractor just in front of the rear tire that was attached to the tractor case with two rubber hoses running from the valve to the rear disconnects. If I connected the bh without turning the valve, the bh wouldn't work. If the valve was turned so the bh worked and I disconnected the lines for the bh, I would have been deadheading the fluid until I turned the valve the opposite way. That's why I replaced my turn type valve with the actual remote valve so I would just have the lever and could use it to have control over hydraulic cylinders such as my power angle snow plow.

As others mentioned, a short hose connecting the two disconnects when not in use is a good safety in case yo accidentally bump the remote lever to it's detent.

I think Joel is on the money.

 

[Coyote machine]

For what its worth, I bought my first tractor just this month from my local Kioti dealer. It came with rear remotes and I had a backhoe installed by the dealer. When going over features of the tractor the dealer principal mentioned to me to not leave the lever in a position other than neutral because I could/(would) burn out the pump. At the time I wasn't even sure what pump he was referring to. When delivered the next day I had the owner's son review things like the lever and pump burnout because as a total novice I did not want to do something stupid right off the bat that could be easily avoided by knowing more about the tractor. I know that if I push the lever toward the floor it makes a whining noise I can't miss and I immediately pull it back to neutral position and verify it is in neutral by putting it to the floor again and then backing it into the neutral detent position. It is not as easy as it should be to verify neutral without some concentrated effort, IMHO.
I do remember someone mentioning that Rick, of Wallace had instructed them to get on and off the tractor (like a horse,{my words})- ONLY from the left. This made sense to me since I had experienced the fel lever would often engage to release,(down position) and could cause injury to bystanders if the bucket was up and I left the tractor or entered it from the right side.
More importantly, your dealer MISSED that you had rear remotes from the getgo, and then to cover their butt they made it seem that they had also missed during all the diagnosis/repair time that they worked on the tractor that someone had left the rear remote lever engaged!!?? LOL ROF
COME ON! Who in their right mind believes this nonsense?!
Kioti should at absolute minimum warn the consumer in the owner's manuals of all rear run Kioti implements, and the tractor owner's manual, that leaving the rear remotes engaged with no implement attached will damage and could destroy the hydraulic pump.
AND they should put a large warning label in view of the operator's line of sight when seated on the tractor, DAMAGE to hydraulic pump will occur if rear remote is engaged without implement attached.
Better yet, they ought to redesign the rear remotes to disengage automatically; and I would bet my last dollar that we will see this change soon on their tractors.

END of story. It is a FAILURE to warn on the part of KIOTI. AND it is something that with your specific set of circumstances with a dealer who is essentially no longer a Kioti dealer 'helping' you- you ARE definitely getting screwed.

Here is what I would do.
I would ask the no longer 'dealer' to work with Kioti to immediately access this situation as a good will repair to be covered by Kioti- with the understanding that no more hydraulic pumps will be warrantied on this tractor for the remainder of the warranty period.
If they refuse this deal, then pay for the entire repair with your favorite credit card and dispute the charge with the card company, documenting what you have had to do to get your tractor repaired under warranty. You have this right as a consumer- credit cards do have some powerful consumer protections- I would use them in this case. Avoid going to court- you will save yourself time and further aggravation and will be able to get on with your life.

People are correct in saying that KIOTI cannot change the terms of warranty coverage by issuing a service or other bulletin to dealers or consumers, ( I've yet to see any kind of notice from Kioti pertaining to Hydraulic pump failure...). And they can't decide to amend or abuse the clause about abuse of the tractor by the operator, especially since no one has had official notice from KIOTI about pump failures, and they would be hard pressed to show abuse on your part in court as would you be hard pressed to show that they might have inadvertently, or on purpose, engaged the lever to make you the abuser....

I strongly suspect that Kioti has bought a BUNCH of pumps already and they are looking for a way out on a case by case basis. And if you give in to their tactics then they get away with it and you do end up screwed. Do NOT let them take advantage of poor design and failure to warn.

Good luck- persist and you will prevail!! We're with you!

 

[Jaybr]

Thanks for all the support.

I should clarify one point: The dealer has stopped selling Kioti, but they are still an authorized Kioti warranty repair facility. I verified this with the Kioti Rep I spoke to.

Since the dealer is acting on Kioti's behalf, I'll be pressing the issue with Kioti instead of the dealer at this point.

Fortunately I also have a legal plan through work, so if it comes to taking them to court it won't cost me anything or very little. I'll make sure I mention that to Kioti next time we talk, because they probably figure it will cost me more to fight this than to just pay for the pump.

 

[Slackdaddy]

Would a short hose with couplers, conecting the rear remote ports together, protect the pump, in the event the lever is put in "A" or "B" ?

Where would be the best place to get a hose made up?
are the couplers universal ?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Gittyup]

Would a short hose with couplers, conecting the rear remote ports together, protect the pump, in the event the lever is put in "A" or "B" ?

Where would be the best place to get a hose made up?
are the couplers universal ?

Thanks,

Nick

Yes, a loopback hose would protect the pump when no implement is attached. But there are implements, like a hydraulic toplink, that would still result in pump damage if the lever is left in the down position (and/or toplink damage too).

Not sure why Kioti's doesn't return to neutral when dead headed, yet at least one JD owner says theirs does. I think it's just one more area where Kioti isn't quite "as good" as John Deere (and others too maybe). Nevertheless, I still think you'd have to be completely oblivious to not notice the whine it makes while deadheaded.

The type of hose and the couplings will vary from setup to setup. Mine uses 1/2" NPT ports with general Ag-style QDs. A loopback hose with QD's would probably cost from $20 - $30 or so. The Ag-style QDs that I use cost about $6 each, and a short piece of 1/2" NPT thread terminated hose is around $10. I got my last QDs and hose at tractor supply. NAPA was cheaper on the hose, but higher on the QD's. You can also buy online for about the same price delivered to your door.

 

[IslandTractor]

Would a short hose with couplers, conecting the rear remote ports together, protect the pump, in the event the lever is put in "A" or "B" ?

Where would be the best place to get a hose made up?
are the couplers universal ?

Thanks,

Nick

Yes, that is the simpliest way to avoid this problem. All you need is a foot or 18 inches of 3/8 hose and a couple of male Pioneer quick connects. Keep it in your toolbox when you are using the remotes and replace it instead of using caps when you remove the remote powered implement. You could order the parts from Hydraulic Supply on line or just go to a local hydraulic or tractor shop and have them make it up for you. Cost of the hose is negligable but it will cost a bit to have the SAE end fittings put on the hose and then the quick connects cost $10-15 each. Tractor Supply would have all this stuff too.

I have read the more recent comments and I agree that the dealer seems to have been involved in two ways with this failure. First was a failure to inform the customer about this "feature" of a hydraulic remote system and the second is the fiasco during the repair where they failed to diagnose a deadhead condition for quite a while, possibly even causing more damage. However, it is hard for me to see this as a Kioti problem any more than it would be a JD, Kubota, NH, Case, Mahindra etc etc problem. There is nothing unique to Kioti tractors regarding this problem. Deadheading will cause damage regardless of what tractor you own and it is unrelated to tractor brand.

 

[cdcole]

I would print this entire thread. Highlight all of the best, most relevant points made. Paste them into a professionally written MSWord template (legal letter) to Kioti, their Rep. and their dealer with a copy to my attorney. I would be clear what I expect and by when. Good luck.

 

[warhammer]

When I took delivery the dealer told me about not leaving the remote on when nothing was attached.
I bumped the lever once while brush hogging and there is an immediate whine to the system that does not sound like its a good thing.

Warhammer

I'm wondering if the relieve valve failed or something similar. According to what both my son and the dealer are telling me, the tractor wasn't run with the remotes engaged more than a minute or two. I know I never run it with the remotes engaged, and I check everything often. My son also said he never heard any strange noise before it went, he said he got on the tractor to move it and the lift arms wouldn't go up and then he noticed fluid dripping out the right side.

The chipper runs off the PTO, not hydrualic connection.