Cub Cadet / Kohler -> not so good

[Dave01]

TeNet, sorry to hear the news, got to be frustrating to say the least. Check into the Honda replacement, and there are a few other places that offer drop in replacements, do some searching and you can call a few outfits to see what they offer for the 2500.

I've had good luck with Kohler. Several older K models, 2 Magnums, right now I'm running 3 Commands. Every one of them has run well and reliably, a solid product. My newest is a 2003 in our Cub 3204 so not sure if anything has gone wrong since then. We all rely on our own experience, and mine has been good with Kohler.

I hope things work out for you! One other thought, as bad as the engine looks, talk to a local small engine repair guy and see what he thinks. He might be able to put it back together for $500 or so in parts and labor. I know you don't want any part of that Kohler right now but might be worth a call.

 

[JTKub]

..If I got a lemon, so be it, but all you Kohler-lovers should at least admit there are some lemons out there, and some people are getting screwed. I did buy it new, and I did get Kohler-ized.

TENet. I feel for you. I've got the same tractor, same engine at ~120hrs (no engine issues thus far!). Apples/apples they are decent machines for this price range. Far from perfect, but decent. If it's an consolation, all small OPE engines are prone to loosing valve seats, valve retainers, etc.. I've read a post or two of VERY high dollar liquid cooled Kawasaki powered JDs, dropping a valve after a backfire when a retainer came off. I find it hard to believe some calm/cool/persistent push back to a cub dealer and or Kohler directly couldn't yield some type of reimbursement here?? It's going to take more than one call or visit. How old is this machine?

Joel

 

[TENet]

JTKub -

As a matter of fact, this occurred when I shut the engine off, and it did backfire, as it always does. (Yes, I've read the threads, I do throttle it down first, but I've taken to throttling down, turning the key, and quickly covering my ears. The neighbors think it's a hoot to watch).

Anyway, amazing how you called it with the backfire. To answer your question, this machine is 5 years old. The engine size / cut width was recommended by the cub dealer, so that's what I got. It takes about an hour and 20 to cut, so 25-30 hours each year. Hence, no warranty. If I was using it 10 hours a week, it would have been gone before the summer was out.

 

[2manyrocks]

I have had a Kohler command for three or four years now and have had no problems with it. This one however appears to be a clunker, unfortunately.

 

[Gator6x4]

JTKub -

As a matter of fact, this occurred when I shut the engine off, and it did backfire, as it always does. (Yes, I've read the threads, I do throttle it down first, but I've taken to throttling down, turning the key, and quickly covering my ears. The neighbors think it's a hoot to watch).

Anyway, amazing how you called it with the backfire. To answer your question, this machine is 5 years old. The engine size / cut width was recommended by the cub dealer, so that's what I got. It takes about an hour and 20 to cut, so 25-30 hours each year. Hence, no warranty. If I was using it 10 hours a week, it would have been gone before the summer was out.

The newer Kohler Command or Courage engines like to have 3/4 or more throttle when the iginition is turned off. When you have it running again and are stopping or shutting down the engine make sure the throttle is at least three quaters open before turning the ignition switch to off and see if this stops the back firing problem. Your neighbors may start inviting you over for a cold one again.

 

[JTKub]

JTKub -

As a matter of fact, this occurred when I shut the engine off, and it did backfire, as it always does. (Yes, I've read the threads, I do throttle it down first, but I've taken to throttling down, turning the key, and quickly covering my ears. The neighbors think it's a hoot to watch)..

It's pretty clear, black and white in the Cub ops manual that you are supposed to throttle UP on the newer Kohler Command twins upon shut-down. It's also a recommended procedure per Kohler themselves on the backfire prone machines. Doing so completely prevents the backfire or "afterfire" as Cub and Kohler call it. FWIW, the 17hp Briggs Intek on my ~2003 model year Yard Machines pile-o-poop 600 series lawn tractor also was "afterfire" prone. Throttling up prevented it on that one-lunger as well.

Joel

 

[JTKub]

JTKub -

To answer your question, this machine is 5 years old. The engine size / cut width was recommended by the cub dealer, so that's what I got. It takes about an hour and 20 to cut, so 25-30 hours each year. Hence, no warranty. If I was using it 10 hours a week, it would have been gone before the summer was out.

Gotcha. I'd still pursue Kohler on this though. Start with some emails or call the number here>> Kohler Engines: Contact Us Send them your pics and go from there. These are considered a "commercial" series engine and should last a good 2000hrs. I bet they come through with a good portion of a repair/replacement cost. I wouldn't expect them to pay 100% and you might wanna be clear with that right of the bat.

Joel

 

[Bob_Bainbridge]

S*** happens I guess. You can get a bad apple in the barrel with almost any product. I've been on this board for awhile and haven't really seen all that many complaints about Kohler engines, especially the Command series. My old CC 1450 with a single Kohler 14 ran for 26 years and 1100 hours with nary a problem other than a voltage regulator replacement. It used very little oil when I parted with it. It's replacement is a 2004 3235 with the Kohler Command 25hp and now has 250+ hours. I don't really expect it to last as long as the 1450 but so far it hasn't been back to the dealer for anything. I replaced the blades and a couple deck rollers so far.

Bob B.

 

[micman32]

I have had no problems with my Kohler Command 20. It runs like a top uses no oil and has been very reliable. I have never had any trouble with Kohler engines.

Michael

 

[savageactor7]

On our Kohler Command engine I choke it to shut it off. Let it idle down for a minute choke it and turn the key off just before it sputters.

No backfires or post ignition drama. imo backfires are something to be avoided...bad news.

 

[ragkar]

TENet said
"As a matter of fact, this occurred when I shut the engine off, and it did backfire, as it always does. (Yes, I've read the threads, I do throttle it down first, but I've taken to throttling down, turning the key, and quickly covering my ears. The neighbors think it's a hoot to watch)."

This is from my Craftsman 16 hp kohler engined mower manual (I don't know which engine series)
PROBLEM - Engine backfires when turning off
CORRECTION - Move throttle control to 'SLOW' position and allow to idle for 30 seconds before stopping engine.

 

[diesel_nut]

Let's see we've got one valve seat falling out and whatever greenies' problem was.
Oh, that's enough to condemn the whole engine line. STOP THE PRODUCTION RUN!!!!

I had a Suzuki DR-Z400 dirt bike. It was known for having a suspect cam chain tensioner. One broke on me at 12,000 ft in Colorado. I fixed it on the trail and ordered a new one when I got back home. I replaced it with a new one, knowing the real fix was an aftermarket manual cam chain tensioner. The new one broke on first ride with it, this time causing valve damage. Did I blame Suzuki? No. I took my lumps and went on. I parted the bike out and bought a KTM 520, which I have had now for 9 years with no problems. Sometimes you git bit and sometimes you don't.
That's the real world.

 

[magicalj]

TENet, I've read post before on here where their Kohler engine went south after the warranty ran out and they had some luck with getting some help from Kohler. You have nothing to lose calling them and seeing if they will help you get your engine running again. BTW, I admit to hearing some bad stories about the Kohlers, but they really are few and far between. As far as the B/S engines, I own a vanguard and it's been a great engine, but I have personally seen some issues with the cranks being weak in there cheaper models. I'm pretty sure that the Briggs engines that JD puts in there cheaper models have a crank that is made to JD's specs and is not the same crank that is in their other engines. Hence why it's called a JD engine built by Briggs and Stratton.

AJ

 

[shakin]

you actually believe that deere has motors built to specs. thats funny does deere even make those or are the assembled by mtd or like my poulan pro "this one still cracks me up" electrolux.

 

[MossRoad]

This thread has been pruned, some posts removed and some PMs sent. Please stay on the topic and leave the bickering out of it. It doesn't help the original poster. Thanks.

 

[diesel_nut]

This thread has been pruned, some posts removed and some PMs sent. Please stay on the topic and leave the bickering out of it. It doesn't help the original poster. Thanks.

Not sure the OP was looking for any help. Looked like a statement of opinion. Looked like brand bashing to me.
Sure. i'd like to hear about problems, but simply state what happened and leave opinion out of it(as much you can when you are upset). As I stated about the Suzuki engine I had problems with I always went to dirt bike web sites and encouraged owners to change out their cam chain tensioner. I didn't blame Suzuki nor the part supplier that made the tensioner. The engine was great besides having a part that could cause a fatal catastrophe.

 

[TENet]

The middle of the story; I was able to buy all the parts I need (I think, so far) for $ 254, which is not so bad. Plus that included new filters and oil.

I tried Kohler twice, but got no response, I doubt it's worth it to go further. I did go to the Cub Cadet web page, where they list the top selling engine parts. Out of the 9 top sellers, one is the cylinder head I needed. I suspect I'm not the first one with a problem. (Hope the link works) CubCadet - Top Selling Engine Parts - Category

Anyway, if all goes well I'll be back to cutting grass in a few hours. Thanks very much to all who lent support.

And, a by the way... the guy at Kohler parts distribution told me that Kohler insists you MUST, MUST, MUST use 10W-30 oil. The Cub Cadet Owners Manual says 10W30 or 10W40, but (according to this Service Distributor) even topping off with 10W40 can cause lifter problems. He advised me to replace the lifters and all new cylinder head bolts along with the other parts. Just FYI, I'm only telling you what the guy told me...

 

[diesel_nut]

Glad you got the parts at a reasonable price. Glad to hear you will get it back to a useful state. Sorry you had the problems.

 

[jimdiesel1]

as far as backfire issues, you need to shut the engine off with throttle at 2/3rds open or higher, here's why:
The electric solenoid on the carb shuts the main jet when turned off, but not the idle circuit as you might know. So..... with the throttle butterfly at or near wide open, insufficent vacuum is present to draw in fuel from the idle circuit and the solenoid closes the main jet. This means no fuel to the engine and no backfire.
If this is not followed and you idle the engine expect a backfire as you are not following Kohler's procedure for all engines which have a carb solenoid. Older engines did not have this and idling WAS the proper procedure on these. Practically all new engines use the carb solenoid and with any brand the advice is the same, 2/3 rds or higher throttle at shutdown.

Backfire may cause a head gasket to fail as well, have seen this quite often.

Now on the valve seat issue, my take: Typically this happens when a lean condition or lack of cooling is present. Take sure the intake manifold gasket or o-ring was in place and intact. If not that would constitute an assembly defect, plain and simple. Seen a few of these leave the factory with intake leaks and one cylinder running lean. Check the intake manifold for leakage also. It happens. If that was the case you have a means to ask the factory for assistance. Take it to them directly or ask an "area service rep" from their distributor to intervene, they have the power to help you as the "eyes and ears" of Kohler at the location. I know.

 

[Bob_Bainbridge]

On our Kohler Command engine I choke it to shut it off. Let it idle down for a minute choke it and turn the key off just before it sputters.

No backfires or post ignition drama. imo backfires are something to be avoided...bad news.

You may be flooding the cylinders with raw gas doing that which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls and cause increased wear on starting and possible oil dilution. The old Kohlers (1450 vintage) required closed throttle on shutoff and the newer ones (3235 vintage) require 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.

Bob B.