HVAC II, which one?

Richard · Jun 2, 2009

If you are new to this thread, I had a compressor fail. The repair guy who came out says it's dead and needs replaced. He evidently sells Amana. I've not read the fine print of the warranty but it says in the larger print "Lifetime Limited Unit Replacement Warranty" I'm sure there are going to be several fine print disclaimers... but the unit I DID have (Coleman) only had a 1 year as I recall.

So... here's what he's coming up with: (also, I might butcher part of it and since I'm a dummy on this stuff, I ask in advance you give me a little leeway for not knowing the terminology or things like that)

1. Standard Amana heat pump, 13 Seer, about $3,500 installed. This unit doesn't qualfiy for any tax credits

2. 15 Seer Amana $4,636 with a 15% tax credit ($695) so net cost would be $3,942 or only $442 more than standard unit (seems like no brainer to me)

3. 15 Seer Amana as above with propane backup! I stumbled onto the propane idea and we discussed it. Some pros/cons to the propane (I'd need to add a tank) This unit before propane expenses is $5,668 with 15% tax credit ($850) so it would be $4,818 or $1,318 more than the basic above but with propane heat and not electric (I personally like that idea other than NOT having a current propane tank)

I'd said I live in boonies near lake....he asked if I had a well...yes I do, a gusher well.

He said I should look into a water source system (geothermal). I think I'd use what you might call an open circuit? I'd tap into my water source, use it but then, need to discharge the water somewhere (which currently is a vexing problem) He sent me to www.climatemaster.com and told me to look at the Tranquility system(s).

This geothermal system would be "about" the price of the other...he said he'd have to call but felt $6,000 would be an ok discussion number (I rounded the highest earlier price up so I came up with 6K)

He went on to say, geothermal units are NOT liminted at $1,500 credit but you can get 30% credit on entire amount. So, 30% credit of $6,000 is $1,800 or a net price of $4,200...only $700 more than the base unit price.

I have never heard of this type system... they talked about its virtues for 20 minutes.

Tidbits on my well: flow rate is 100 gallons. I have about about 30 GPM available to me inside the house, after my pressure tank. My main issue here would be where to discharge the water after use? I asked if it could go back into my well and he was iffy on that.

Could it go back into the well? THAT would be the perfect answer since it will otherwise create some continual water movement issues. I could even put some extra long pipes so it's discharged DOWN in the well (say 100 feet) under the waterline or maybe just above it. This way, it woudn't wash 100' down the well casing.

he was concerned about warming my well... I don't know anything about that but if my well has a total depth of 310 feet, pump intake is at 220 feet and my static level is 104 feet with a GPM of 100.... it simply seems to me that my well would have less of an issue on warming than perhaps a lower flow well??? I think my casing is 6" if that also helps.

I just looked at my well data for above and see it has a 3/4 HP pump yielding 10 GPM which I find interesting since I measured more.

Ok...

General thoughts on Amana?

General thoughts on geothermal?

General thoughts on Propane backup?

General thoughts...no, any SPECIFIC thoughts on recycling the discharge water back into my well?? He said some people use discharge for watering, ponds... and they have a manifold where they can select the new discharge location. I suppose I could do that if the discharge to the well is only "iffy" instead of good/bad.

(did all that make sense?)

Thanks for any thoughts!!

Stimw · Jun 2, 2009

I'm on my second home with Geothermal Heat Pump. I have installed both myself including putting in the wells for them. I put the first in my last house in 1980 and sold the house in 1999 with it still working great.
I put my current one in two years ago. FHP Manufacturing - Water Source and Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps They are self contained, add water, electric and duct it to the current duct system.
This one, a 3 ton is rated at 21 amps with a 19.9 EER on cooling, 4.2 COP on heat with 65* water. I took out a 4 ton air to air rated at 60 amps.
I would not use the well for discharge, there would always be a chance for contamination. I can discharge to water my grass or put it into a drainage ditch.

Richard · Jun 2, 2009

Stim, I'm taking your response as an affirmation towards using the geothermal system??!!!

Tis what I was wanting to hear, thanks!

Willl · Jun 2, 2009

As I said before, installation will trump all brands.

buckeyefarmer · Jun 2, 2009

If you can get a tranquility installed for 6K, I'd jump on it. In my neck of the woods quotes for that unit are more like $20k installed. With your kind of well, a pump and dump should work, once you figure out the best way to get rid of the water. Some will drill another well to dump into. Geo saves in the long run on the usage costs.

However, those are good prices for heat pumps.

Sigarms · Jun 3, 2009

My vote goes for Geothermal.

Personally, and something I always suggest, is to take your time and to get at least three quotes, if for anything else, to "compare" the people giving you quote and how you feel about them (not just to get the best price).

This geothermal system would be "about" the price of the other...he said he'd have to call but felt $6,000 would be an ok discussion number (I rounded the highest earlier price up so I came up with 6K)

I'd be all over a 6k instal for a geothermal system like flies on cow manure

2. 15 Seer Amana $4,636 with a 15% tax credit ($695) so net cost would be $3,942 or only $442 more than standard unit (seems like no brainer to me)

3. 15 Seer Amana as above with propane backup! I stumbled onto the propane idea and we discussed it. Some pros/cons to the propane (I'd need to add a tank) This unit before propane expenses is $5,668 with 15% tax credit ($850) so it would be $4,818 or $1,318 more than the basic above but with propane heat and not electric (I personally like that idea other than NOT having a current propane tank)

If the contractor givig you the tax credit info is the same one giving you a 6k quote for a new geothermal instal, it's starting to make sense.

For systems other than geothermal, it's 30% of the total instal cost, not to exceed $5,000. Your numbers are off per what you think your tax credit would be.

As I said before, installation will trump all brands

Very true, but some brands do have nicer features than others, and some can be a service tech's nightmare.

Richard · Jun 3, 2009

Sigarms said:
For systems other than geothermal, it's 30% of the total instal cost, not to exceed $5,000. Your numbers are off per what you think your tax credit would be.

Ahh.. yes... I see. I was overwhelmed with numbers and was thinking of it being a $1,500 credit, (which is somehow, how I jumped to 15%)

30% of $5K would be $1,500

sigh...

Regardless... let me toss another thought out.

Evidently you can also have a closed loop system?

Are those significantly more? Here's why I ask.

My current yard would not allow me the space to have one, with the woods and then the property lines.

However... I might be able to work out a deal with father in law regarding the field in front of my house. Everyone wants that field to stay as is however, since it's titled to the farm and not to a house, if they sell the farm, the field is gone.

If I buy that field from him I would have a large area to place an underground system and work it back to my house.

If this happens (which if I were to be honest, is probably doubtful but I'm exploring all options right now)

Anyways, if this happened, could I then drive a large tractor on this field? Would I be relegated to a riding mower?

How about my full sized industrial JCB loader/backhoe?

Would they let me trench it myself since I've got the hoe?

The event of this a/c unit going out on me has really caused a ton of questions. Yesterday, I didn't know what a geothermal unit was and would have said NO WAY could I use a closed system... today, I see the (remote) possiblity of using a closed system.

If a closed system were to be installed, would I use say, a 3/4" line from house to field or a 2", 4"?? Along the way, because of current logistics, the pipe would HAVE to cross the path of my power line from the power company (buried). Is that an issue or could I dig below that line and take line under it?

Because of the way the power line circles my yard, there is really ZERO chance of getting to the other side without crossing it or pulling it above ground (the power line) which I don't see happening.

Is that a deal killer on its own?

Richard · Jun 3, 2009

Here's a picture of the field in front of my house. View of field and house and then a turn to the left to see more of the field. I might add that my power line is buried right in the middle of the gravel road to the house. Furthermore, from the transformer (which you can't see but is a bit left of the driveway) to the house, the wire is buried and travels FURTHER to the left going all the way around my yard (around the septic field) and to the meter box.

Any water would have to travel out of my garage which is on the right side of the house, so there is no way I can get to the field without taking a water line over the power line.

JeremyL · Jun 3, 2009

I'm also doing some research on replacing my A/C. I found this:

"We found more criticism and complaints about Goodman (makers of the Goodman, Janitrol and Amana brands) than any other brand. In spite of that, most contractors maintain that the problem is not with Goodman products, which are sometimes less expensive, but with faulty installation. These pros say that other manufacturers, such as Trane and Bryant, establish stringent requirements for technicians who install their equipment, while Goodman will let anyone install one of their air conditioners. When these pros repair Goodman units, they often find that the problem is not defective or short-lived parts. If you buy a Goodman air conditioner from a skilled contractor, they say it will be as reliable as any other brand."

It is from: Central Air Conditioners Reviews

2manyrocks · Jun 3, 2009

You don't have to buy the field. You could get a written easement to use it to bury your lines and then have it state what can and can't be done on the field that might tear up your lines. However, the most certain way to control the use of the field is for you to buy it so you control its use.

Other option is to dig a deep well and run your lines vertically on your own site. But I think you'll run into the same question of contamination of your well water. I think you're going to have to research that more before deciding whether to use your existing well or dig another one or go out in the field. If the system just uses water with no additives, then that's one thing, but you don't want to discharge any additives into your well. Could you add a filtration system to your potable water lines and still discharge in your existing well?

I thought you had to take the line under an electric line, but I think there may be some code issues you'll want to sort out.