IH3444
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dmccarty
Super Star Member
Yes and no. The spark the lit the Japanese power keg was oil but that was due to a US embargo. Why did the US set up the embargo? It was because of Japanese actions in China. Japan had invaded China and even earlier Korea. Those invasions had nothing to do with oil. FDR's oil embargo was reaction to the Japanese invasions. Oil was did not cause the Japanese to invade its neighbors. The US just used the most powerful peaceful weapon it had against the Japanese. Oil.
There was almost certainly going to be war between the US and Japan. Japan was attacking its neighbors. The European colonial powers had very few forces too far from home to deter much less stop Japanese expansion. The only country that could was the US. And the Japanese did not think the US would even try to stop them much less that the US COULD stop them. I don't see how war was preventable.
Oil was just the spark.
****** invaded North Africa well after he had taken over western Europe. Hitlers actions were not based on oil.
******, like ******, G. Khan, Alex the Great, Napoleon, etc, were all about Super Ego. ****** wanted Kuwait, the lost province of Iraq. Did Iraq need more oil? Only if you are greedy and have to feed the Super Ego. US interests in the gulf are tied to oil sense without that energy the WORLD economies DIE. That simple.
For a historical comparison of "colonial" powers regarding commodities lets look at rice. Yes rice. The French in Indochina during the 1920s and 1930 exported much of the rice. Millions of people died of starvation. Indochina was, if not the largest, one of the largest, growers of rice at the time, yet its food was exported and millions died. The Irish famine was the same. The British continued to export food from Ireland while millions starved to death in the potato famines. There was food in Ireland that could have fed the population but it was exported.
These are just two examples on how Colonial powers generally treat colonies. There are worse examples. How does the US operations in the Gulf regions compare?
Later,
Dan
Chuck52
Veteran Member
I'm not condemning our actions in the Gulf or any other region, though you seem to agree that the world depends on the oil there and that affects our interests. I also don't disagree that greed and ambition play the major role in many, if not most, wars. However, I think it is clear that a major cause, or at least the spark that starts a conflagration, is often a limited resource, which may simply be an assumed lack of "lebensraum". BTW, apparently ******'s main drive for oil seems to have been in the Caucasus, my bad. As you say, without the oil of the middle east, the WORLD economies DIE. I bet a total shutdown of that supply would lead to war. It's pretty hard to parse the reasons for wars. Ego and ambition, greed....they all seem pretty tied up with "you got it and I want it". We may simply be talking chicken and egg here.
On the other hand, at least its another departure from the endless debate over whose facts trump whose about GW!
Chuck
dmccarty
Super Star Member
I think for most wars it is pretty easy to figure out the whys and it does break down to Super Ego/Super Greed or as you say "you got it and I want it." There are the "we want you to behave this way" reasons which is back to Super Ego. WWI was a really warped Super Ego war where Nations went insane. They were fighting over what?
Course I am surprised this thread did not get locked a long time ago.
Though people have been well behaved. Later,
Dan
Loren49
Platinum Member
Here are a couple of sites discussing the true price of gasoline (price at pump + hidden costs paid in taxes)
Earth to America: The Price of Gasoline Isn’t Too High, It’s Too Low | Kevin Ummel | Global Development: Views from the Center
The True Cost of a Gallon of Gas? - International Analyst Network
I concede that the bottom line is debatable but there clearly are hidden costs.
I'm not saying we should pay more but that there would be many advantages to paying closer to the true cost at the pump and have less hidden costs (taxes).
Loren
Earth to America: The Price of Gasoline Isn’t Too High, It’s Too Low | Kevin Ummel | Global Development: Views from the Center
The True Cost of a Gallon of Gas? - International Analyst Network
I concede that the bottom line is debatable but there clearly are hidden costs.
I'm not saying we should pay more but that there would be many advantages to paying closer to the true cost at the pump and have less hidden costs (taxes).
Loren
Pilot
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General Billy Mitchell visited Japan in about 1928 and on his return to the US wrote up a report to the pentagon about Japans' leaders ambitions. He predicted much of what Japan did, including their invasion of China and the attack on Pearl Harbor, outlining pretty much how they carry out the attack.
He viewed the US as the major obstacle to Japan's objectives. I don't remember if he predicted that oil would be a factor.
He viewed the US as the major obstacle to Japan's objectives. I don't remember if he predicted that oil would be a factor.
dmccarty
Super Star Member
Oil in modern war is ALWAYS a factor. It is a means to an end.
The Japanese knew it was a factor. One of their major targets was to take the oil in the Dutch East Indies and Borneo, what is now Indonesia and Malaysia. To protect that oil as it moved from that part of Asia to Japan the Japanese "had" to attack and hold the PI, French Indochina, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, etc.
So to get to the oil the Japanese "had" to attack the French, Thai's, PI's, the Dutch, the UK, and oh yeah, the US. Since the US was the only major power that would be able to stop them.
The Japanese goal was the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere aka the Japanese controlled areas of Asia. Super Ego and Super Greed. The means to the end was the oil. No oil and you cannot fight a modern war much less run an modern economy.
By the end of WWII the Imperial Japanese Navy and Army was having a heck of a time flying planes and moving ships. Why? The US sub fleet had wiped out the Japanese merchant fleet. They could not move oil from the Dutch Indies area to the Japanese Home Islands. Since they could not move the oil to the IJN, the IJN moved its ships to the oil. By 1944/45 the IJN's surface fleet mostly resided in Borneo/Malaysia to be near the oil to fill their bunkers.
There is a saying that military amateur's study tactics while professionals study logistics.
Generals and Admirals like things that go boom. Everyone wants to command a battleship. Who wants to be the CO of a tanker?
No glory there. The Japanese never had enough tankers in their own fleet. Oil was brought to Japan by the US, Dutch, UK, etc. The only hope the Japanese really had in WWII was that the US, as they thought, would NOT fight. Yamamoto thought otherwise and knew he could win for 6 months. And he did. Then the tied turned. The Japanese simply did not have the logistical ability to move around the supplies they needed especially after ships starting sinking. Their yards could not replaces the losses. Thus they were in a death spiral oil and resource wise.
Yamamoto was killed when his transport plane was shot down by P-38's specifically sent to kill him. The P-38 was the only fighter than could reach the area where Yamamoto was going to land. Just barely. They somehow lucked out in finding him and shooting down his plane. The US did not have UAVs firing Hellfire missiles back then. Result is the same though.
Later,
Dan
IH3444
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Those P-38s were custom built just for that mission. I believe they were built out of balsam wood for lightness, and extra capacity tanks designed in as well as drop tank for distance. One developed engine trouble, and had to return to base. The others flew on and completed the mission.
And then there was the fire bombing of both Japan, and Germany. You can read those accounts yourselfs. A good place to start is a book titled, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb".
And then there was the fire bombing of both Japan, and Germany. You can read those accounts yourselfs. A good place to start is a book titled, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb".
dmccarty
Super Star Member
The planes where not custom built since they were already deployed in the area when the code breakers realized the importance of some radio intercepts. The radio intercepts told of Yamamoto's visit and schedules. This allowed the US to create an operation to get him. The planes where modified slightly for the operation.
I think the plane you mean is the British Mosquito. It was made out of plywood and balsa. If it was not the fastest prop plane it WWII it was in for the running. The designer figured that when war broke out there would be a shortage of metal and metal workers but there would be plenty of wood and wood workers.
Pretty danged smart. Later,
Dan
IH3444
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